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US presidential debate: Debate coach says it’s ‘most consequential debate in history’
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Hello and welcome. I'm Riz Khan.
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So the debate is over and the
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debate about the debate began
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immediately afterwards.
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Armed with only a pen, a pad of
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paper, a bottle of water and their
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wits. Kamala Harris and Donald
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Trump came face to face for the
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first time in their lives last night
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on stage in Philadelphia.
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The vice president and the former
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president were prepared to do battle
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before an audience numbering tens of
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millions on TV and online
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across the US.
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But, of course, the candidates had
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been preparing for this day for
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weeks.
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They've been working with a close
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knit team of policy advisers and
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debating coaches.
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In this episode, we'll get an
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insight into what was happening
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behind closed doors in the run up to
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this key moment in the election
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campaign.
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We'll also look back at some of the
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zingers and gaffes which became
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make or break moments during
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previous presidential debates.
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And we'll bring together Democratic
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and Republican leaders in a lively
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debate on the state of the race with
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just eight weeks until polling day.
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I think this debate might be one of
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the most consequential
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presidential debates that
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we've had in our history.
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Brett O'Donnell is known to many as
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America's best debate coach.
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His clients included George W Bush,
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John McCain, Mitt Romney and Ron
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DeSantis. And he was twice named
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as being among the five most
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influential people not running
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for president.
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So he's the perfect guest to provide
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us with a look behind the curtain
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at the dark arts of election
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debates.
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Brett O'Donnell, thank you very much
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for joining me. And I guess I should
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start by asking from your experience
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and and what you know about these
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two candidates, what do you think
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they've been doing to prepare for
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the debates?
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Well, what we what we know, what we
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think we know are two different
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things, because candidates
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are usually pretty secretive about
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their debate prep, as they should
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be.
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But what we do know is that Kamala
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Harris has been hidden away for
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about a week in Pittsburgh,
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Pennsylvania, doing debate
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prep, using a live
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stand-in for Donald Trump and doing
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mock debates.
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What we know or we think we know
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about Donald Trump is
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he has been reviewing policy
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with his advisers, talking
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through strategy, and he's been
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doing a ton of interviews.
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And I think he's using these
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interviews to try out lines,
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to try out lines of argument,
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to get himself ready and used to
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the bright lights of these big
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debates.
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We have heard reports of a large man
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dressed like Donald Trump who was
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spotted near the site where Kamala
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Harris was preparing. Now, how far
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do coaches go to impersonate
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their client's opponents?
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Well, it depends upon
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the candidate and what they
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want.
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When we do debate prep like that, we
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have folks that will play the other
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candidate in the race.
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But we don't usually have them dress
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exactly like the other candidate
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or try to appear like
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the other candidate. We want them to
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sound like the other candidate
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to make sure that our
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candidate is ready
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for the arguments that they will
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hear in the debate and
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that that practice debate is
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harder than the debate they'll
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actually do
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when they do the real thing.
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Is it to some degree like rehearsing
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for a stage play or
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a movie? Do they have to become
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essentially like method actors?
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I don't think it's method acting,
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but it is based on performance.
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And there's a lot that goes into
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this.
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It's not just a recitation
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of facts and it's not really
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a debate.
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These debates are more about
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message and moments.
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And those those moments are the
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thing which pick up the
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press fascination, like the
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Ronald Reagan age moment
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or the George Bush
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moment when he looks off Al
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Gore in the debate or different
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moments like that that are
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recorded in history of
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the standout moments from
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presidential debates.
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And so
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you do go through those, you
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rehearse them.
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And how you perform them
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matters because
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folks take meaning away from
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not just what you say, but how you
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say it.
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And so smiling
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and making yourself
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open and open communicator,
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doing things that cast
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yourself as likable, telling
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stories, connecting with the
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audience. All of those are things
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that are part of the overall
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performance that you have to perfect
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in order to do well in these
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political debates.
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That's actually really interesting.
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And I wondered in that case how
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intense it gets.
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I mean, do the candidates during
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these rehearsals get peppered with
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insults and challenge very heavily
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in order to try to put them off
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their stride?
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Absolutely.
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I've had president presidential
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candidates get angry in
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practice, mock debates and
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actually leave the room
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or and prep or
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get angry at
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the person who's the stand in
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because they become so believable.
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You want those simulations to
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be just like the real thing.
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You don't want it to be
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something that's over-the-top or not
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realistic.
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You want you want those candidates
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to face what they're going
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to face when they step out on that
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stage.
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Hopefully they don't take it out on
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you, not to that extent.
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Right. The objective is
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to have them the most ready so that
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when they walk off of that stage,
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they say that was way
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easier than prep.
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What do you teach them about when
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it's best to attack and when it's
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best to defend?
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Well, first of all,
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I think a candidate should always
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be on offense.
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But what I mean by offense is not
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necessarily attacking your opponent,
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but on your message, whether
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it's the affirmative message
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that you're pushing or
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the message that you want to push on
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another candidate.
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Because if you slip into
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defensive mode, that lets the
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other candidate get on offense and
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gain the upper foot.
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These things are all judged by the
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public based on
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who is the most
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aggressive without being
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offensive.
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And so if you remember back to the
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very first Obama-Romney
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debate, Romney won that debate
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because he was on offense
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all the time on the economy
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and it had Obama on his back foot.
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So so you you
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want your candidate to be leaning
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into the debate on message
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on offense.
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Either on their own message
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or on the message we're trying to
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push on the other candidate.
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Brett, I wonder, are there any
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candidates that are effectively
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uncatchable or perhaps unwilling to
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be coached?
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There are some. I had a few
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who don't respond
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well to debate prep.
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They're know it alls.
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They think they understand
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how to do this better.
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And the best
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candidates I work with are the ones
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that are smart.
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They're coachable.
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They they give input into
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the debate prep process.
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We don't try to change people into
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the...
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the worst thing you can do is make
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a candidate inauthentic to make them
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into something or someone they're
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not. And so we don't
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want to do that.
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But we want that candidate to be as
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sharp as possible.
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And and we've got experience.
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We've coached, my firm has coached
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over 100 candidates
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in political debates, whether
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they're House debates, Senate
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debates or presidential debates.
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We've done six presidential debates
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to prime ministers in Britain.
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And so we kind of understand
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how these things work.
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And so we we think we're really good
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at giving a candidate a strategy.
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The candidate has input in that
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strategy. And then we go practice
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it and they make it their own.
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As a Brit myself, I can't help but
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ask, how different did you find the
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British candidates compared with the
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U.S. ones?
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You know, every candidate is
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different, whether they're British,
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American.
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We've worked in other countries as
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well.
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Every single candidate is different.
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And you adapt the prep process
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to that particular candidate.
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It's you know, it's a matter of
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some liking, some
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working with some over others.
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We we worked with with
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both Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak.
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And I found them both
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amazing people, very intelligent
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and great to work with.
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Is it more important as a candidate
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in a debate to have more appeal
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in terms of personality and be
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likable as a person?
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Or is the political competence
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a more important factor?
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They're both very important.
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Voters vote for candidates for
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three reasons.
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One is they think they
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can do the job.
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They can. It's a job interview.
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They can be president of the United
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States. They can make the tough
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decisions. They've got good policy
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plans.
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But the second and third reasons
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relate to that likability factor.
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Folks want to know that you're in
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this for them, that you
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have their best interests in mind
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and then they want to like you.
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And we tend to vote for candidates
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that we like that we think
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are doing this for us and
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that we think can do the job.
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And, you know, there's instances
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all through American presidential
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political history that bear this
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out. The public thought
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by a large margin that Mitt
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Romney would be better on the
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economy.
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But they liked Barack Obama
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better and they ended up voting for
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him because they thought he was in
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it for them and
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they liked him.
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And so they decided
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to go with someone that they thought
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was a little less competent on
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the economy but that they liked
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better.
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You know, you indicated each
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candidate is different.
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And I wonder how much you have to
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adapt your coaching methods
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to suit the skills, the
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weaknesses, the strengths of each
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particular candidate.
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You have to adapt them all the time.
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Some candidates need work
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on the public speaking side.
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They need work on the argument
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side.
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Some candidates are very
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talented speakers and
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need help on the strategic side
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and how to formulate arguments or
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how to think about the strategy.
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You have some candidates come in who
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have a great strategy and they just
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don't know how to execute it.
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So it's a it's really a matter
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of what makes them comfortable,
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what makes them feel
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best prepared. John McCain
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was a talented speaker, very smart,
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very smart strategically,
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and just needed some help on
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execution and giving
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him some some good lines
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to capture what he was trying
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to argue.
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And so we didn't do a lot of mock
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debates with Senator McCain.
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We did a lot more sitting
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around talking through answers,
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talking about strategy
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than we did in mock debates.
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But then on the other hand, I work
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with candidates who like a lot of
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mock debates. They want to go
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through the practice.
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They want things to be
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and look exactly as they will on
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debate day. So it's a matter of
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what's best for that candidate.
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You know, Brett, I'm sure you'll
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agree.
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You know, the presidential race, the
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election campaign is more
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of a marathon than a sprint, more
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like a steeplechase with barriers
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to overcome.
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And I wonder when it comes down to
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it, within that timeline,
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within that longer timeline, how
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important a moment is the actual
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presidential debate for the
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candidates and for the audiences
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watching at home?
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It's a great question.
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Normally, presidential debates are
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a part of the overall
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campaign narrative.
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And there are other things that are
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are as important, whether it's
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the convention speech or the
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announcement speech or things like
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that.
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But in this particular instance,
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where Kamala Harris
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has only been a candidate for 50
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days, has done, only
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one major interview
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has been off the campaign trail
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as much as she's been on the
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campaign trail.
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And we know very little about her
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and that this will be the only
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debate they do.
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I think this debate might be one of
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the most consequential
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presidential debates that
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we've had in our history.
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It's interesting you say that,
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because I guess up
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to now, Donald Trump would have been
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preparing pretty much
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solely to to to talk and debate
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against Joe Biden.
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And now, of course, this new
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candidate has come up quite last
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minute and probably thrown in quite
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a bit of a spanner in the works in
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his coaching sessions.
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Sure. Absolutely.
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You know, when you change candidates
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toward the end of a race, you you
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prepared toward working
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toward being ready for that
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candidate. I mean,
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in every presidential campaign,
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you usually know who the candidate's
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going to be 8 or
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9 months before the election.
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And so you're gearing up, preparing
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everything toward that specific
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candidate. But Joe Biden
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fulfilled what was
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the worst principle of
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of political debates, which is you
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can't win an election, but you can
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lose it.
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He lost his election and
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ended his candidacy in a debate.
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And so now Donald Trump is
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facing a different
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candidate. That also presents
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challenges for Kamala Harris because
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she's little known.
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In the poll yesterday, 28%
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of all Americans say they need to
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know more about her before
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they can even consider voting for
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her. Whereas that number for
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Donald Trump is below 10%
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at 8%. So
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I think there are challenges for
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both people going into this
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debate.
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You know, Brett, I'm sure you agree
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that to someone who watches
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elections so closely,
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you probably agree that Donald Trump
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is the kind of person who holds back
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no punches, which is a lot of the
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appeal for his his particular
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supporters.
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I wonder what you expect coming out
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of a debate against someone like
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coming to Harris because last time
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against Joe Biden, Donald Trump came
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across far more presidential by
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holding back.
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Yeah, I mean, I, I think he's got to
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do that again.
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I think if he focuses on policy
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and makes this election
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a referendum on
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her administration, the Biden-Harris
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administration and cast
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her policies as a
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as a weak, failed, dangerously
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liberal candidate that he's
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on the right trail. If this becomes
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a sort of personality fest,
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personal attack debate,
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then that disadvantages him in and
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advantages Kamala Harris.
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Brett, would you expect the two
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to debate once again before the
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final polling day?
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I don't actually.
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I think this will be the only
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presidential debate that we will
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have unless
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one of the candidates has a major
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stumble and slides
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back in the polls, four or 5
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or 6 points.
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Then they'll be clamoring for
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another debate.
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But my guess is this is going to be
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a razor tight election
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and that this debate will be
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consequential in giving momentum
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to one of the candidates.
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But I don't think it will give
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tremendous separation.
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It just may give them enough
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momentum to win the election.
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Brett O'Donnell, thank you so much.
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It was a real pleasure speaking with
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you.
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Great to speak with you.
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Now we're going to bring you a
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debate of our own.
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And I'm delighted to be joined by a
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pair of leading political
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personalities with very different
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perspectives on the state of the
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presidential race.
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Amy Dacey was chosen by President
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Barack Obama to be his CEO of
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the Democratic National Committee,
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while Josh McKoon is chairman of
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the Republican Party in the
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important battleground state of
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Georgia.
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Amy Dacey and Josh McKoon, Very glad
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to have you both on the show.
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I'm going to start with the question
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for both of you. Amy, perhaps
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putting it to you first.
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You know, compared with elections in
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recent times, how significant
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is the upcoming U.S.
00:16:06
presidential election for both the
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U.S.
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and the global environment?
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Well, we certainly have a habit of
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saying this is always the most
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important election of our lifetime.
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And I think this certainly has a
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lot at stake.
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I mean, I do believe that there are
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decisions that will be made and
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within the next four years, things
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that will be happening in the U.S.
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and globally that matter a lot.
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And I think that is why you see, you
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know, in this election environment,
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not only for the presidential, but
00:16:33
we also have, you know, in our
00:16:34
federal government Senate races and
00:16:36
House races that will determine the
00:16:38
position of power in those two
00:16:39
chambers as well.
00:16:41
And Josh, do you see it the same
00:16:42
way?
00:16:44
It's an incredibly important
00:16:46
election.
00:16:47
You know, so many things have
00:16:49
happened over the course of the last
00:16:50
couple of years that are just
00:16:51
unprecedented.
00:16:53
You know, the tactics of
00:16:55
weaponizing the criminal justice
00:16:57
system against political opponents
00:16:59
in this country, depending on
00:17:01
how this election turns out, that
00:17:02
strategy is either going to be
00:17:04
validated and something we're going
00:17:05
to live with, I think, for the rest
00:17:07
of our lives or is something
00:17:09
we're going to turn away from.
00:17:10
So I, I think this election
00:17:12
is incredibly consequential for the
00:17:14
future of American democracy.
00:17:16
You know, traditionally, the
00:17:18
candidates would always espouse
00:17:19
their policies in the campaigns.
00:17:21
It seems very different nowadays.
00:17:23
And I wonder when the polls are
00:17:24
indicating a very tight race.
00:17:26
How important is a dominant
00:17:28
performance at the presidential
00:17:29
debate? I mean, who needs it the
00:17:30
most? Amy, who do you think?
00:17:33
Well, I think it's it's important.
00:17:34
It's certainly one of the tools in
00:17:35
the toolbox of candidates to reach
00:17:37
voters. I think there's been so much
00:17:39
heightened energy around debates,
00:17:40
especially after the debate
00:17:42
between former President Trump
00:17:44
and President Biden.
00:17:46
But I do think it is that rare
00:17:48
moment when both
00:17:51
opponents are on stage at the same
00:17:52
time push to talk about their
00:17:54
differences, their policies, what
00:17:56
they will bring to the table.
00:17:57
So, you know, I do think that we'll
00:17:59
see probably even a larger
00:18:00
viewership than maybe we have in the
00:18:02
last one. But also the change
00:18:04
now as well is you don't have to
00:18:05
necessarily just watch the debate on
00:18:07
debate night. There will be clips
00:18:08
running all the next day.
00:18:09
There will be analysis.
00:18:10
So what happens between these two
00:18:12
individuals on the debate stage will
00:18:14
matter in setting the tone.
00:18:15
You know, campaigns are about
00:18:17
contrasts and debates are the best
00:18:19
way to kind of show that and
00:18:20
showcase that.
00:18:21
But, Josh, is that the policies
00:18:24
or the personalities that people
00:18:25
remember the most from debates when
00:18:27
it comes to casting their votes?
00:18:30
Well, I think it's both.
00:18:31
President Trump put out - I served
00:18:33
on the platform committee at the
00:18:34
Republican National Convention - and
00:18:36
he came out with 20 explicit
00:18:38
promises to the American people if
00:18:40
he's elected.
00:18:41
Things like no taxes on tips for
00:18:43
service workers, no taxes on Social
00:18:44
Security earnings.
00:18:46
So President Trump has a very clear
00:18:49
agenda for the next four years.
00:18:51
You know, Kamala Harris, it seems
00:18:53
to change by the day.
00:18:55
Her website still doesn't have any
00:18:56
policy documents or white papers on
00:18:58
it.
00:18:59
But I think there's going to be a
00:19:00
very significant contrast between
00:19:02
the candidates there.
00:19:03
Now, Amy, of course, there
00:19:05
is still the big issue of of the
00:19:07
the fact that these are
00:19:08
personalities.
00:19:09
And I'm wondering from your
00:19:11
perspective, is it the policies or
00:19:12
the personalities that will make the
00:19:14
difference?
00:19:15
Well, I don't think that, you know,
00:19:18
this Republican
00:19:20
candidate is about policies
00:19:22
at all or progress, he's about
00:19:23
popularity.
00:19:24
I'd have to disagree with
00:19:26
my fellow panelist.
00:19:28
It's been very clear what the
00:19:29
policies are going forward.
00:19:31
You know, with this Harris Walz
00:19:33
ticket, I think he should refresh
00:19:35
his search engine because they made
00:19:36
it very clear on their website
00:19:37
laying out what they're doing.
00:19:39
This is a campaign that as of two
00:19:41
months ago, I didn't know,
00:19:43
you know, the Harris
00:19:44
didn't have the role
00:19:46
of presidential candidate, but
00:19:48
they've gone a long way.
00:19:49
They've certainly made it much
00:19:50
clearer, I think, at our convention,
00:19:52
you know, the Democrats in Chicago
00:19:54
about what that is.
00:19:55
If you put that speech, convention
00:19:57
speech up against President Trump's,
00:19:59
it's strikingly different.
00:20:01
I think they've made it very clear
00:20:02
what the vision is.
00:20:03
I think they've also made it very
00:20:04
clear, the tone and tenor that they
00:20:06
want to have moving forward and
00:20:08
what's at stake.
00:20:09
But I think they've also done it in
00:20:11
an optimistic way, not talking just
00:20:12
about what they're against.
00:20:14
I think there's a very striking
00:20:15
difference between these two
00:20:17
candidates. As far as personality,
00:20:18
I think that's something that people
00:20:20
do take into account.
00:20:22
But I also think that, you know,
00:20:24
if President Trump decides
00:20:26
to even talk about policy tomorrow
00:20:28
night, it'll be interesting.
00:20:29
It's not been what he's usually
00:20:30
tended to do in these forums.
00:20:33
But I do think it's what's driving
00:20:34
this conversation.
00:20:35
I think the Harris and
00:20:37
and Wall's team have made it very
00:20:38
clear what they stand for and what
00:20:40
they're working on.
00:20:40
They also are willing to talk about
00:20:42
their, you know, the Biden-Harris
00:20:44
administration and the
00:20:44
accomplishments that you've seen.
00:20:46
You know, President Trump was
00:20:47
president for four years, and he
00:20:49
doesn't really talk much about,
00:20:51
you know, what happened during those
00:20:53
four years and what the vision is
00:20:54
for the next four.
00:20:55
I'll get into details in some of
00:20:57
those things in a moment.
00:20:58
But clearly, President Biden's poor
00:21:00
performance in his debate with
00:21:01
former President Trump was a pivotal
00:21:03
moment in this year's election race.
00:21:05
But we've also seen other moments
00:21:06
which seemed at the time that they
00:21:08
might prove to be game changers.
00:21:09
Donald Trump's defiant response to
00:21:11
the assassination attempt was
00:21:13
considered by many to have sealed
00:21:14
his victory, but then his boost in
00:21:16
the polls faded.
00:21:17
And the jubilant scenes at the DNC
00:21:19
after Kamala Harris's nomination
00:21:21
led to an upsurge in confidence and
00:21:22
mood. But it also failed to create
00:21:24
a significant bounce in the polls.
00:21:27
Is there a danger that we in the
00:21:28
media, but also the politicians
00:21:30
get swept up in moments like these
00:21:32
and and this latest debate and the
00:21:34
over impact they might have
00:21:36
on the voters, Josh?
00:21:39
Well, I think that's right.
00:21:41
You know, there's such an obsession
00:21:44
with the horse race component of any
00:21:45
campaign. I think it's
00:21:47
everyone's always looking for that
00:21:49
pivotal moment.
00:21:51
You know, the American electorate is
00:21:53
largely divided with a small
00:21:55
segment of voters that are going to
00:21:56
decide this election.
00:21:58
And what's very clear is that those
00:22:00
voters are looking for a change.
00:22:03
You know, the idea that Vice
00:22:04
President Harris wouldn't have any
00:22:06
policy ideas because she wasn't the
00:22:08
presidential nominee when she's been
00:22:09
vice president for three and a half
00:22:11
years is a little bit difficult to
00:22:13
swallow.
00:22:14
You know, this is a person who owns
00:22:17
the last three and a half years, the
00:22:18
crushing inflation, the
00:22:21
total abandonment
00:22:23
of any pretense of protecting
00:22:25
the southern border, our ports of
00:22:27
entry, and, of course, a world that
00:22:29
is on fire.
00:22:30
This vice president has sat with
00:22:33
President Biden every week.
00:22:34
She bragged about being the last
00:22:36
person in the room when a lot of
00:22:37
these decisions were made, like the
00:22:39
disastrous withdrawal from
00:22:40
Afghanistan.
00:22:41
People are tired of this.
00:22:43
You know, I go around the state
00:22:45
quite a bit talking to Republicans,
00:22:47
independents, and
00:22:49
folks are ready for a change.
00:22:50
And they're looking for the four
00:22:52
years they had under President
00:22:54
Donald Trump, where we had an
00:22:55
economy that works for everyone,
00:22:57
where we had the lowest recorded
00:22:58
level of illegal immigration ever
00:23:00
recorded in American history, and
00:23:02
a world that was at relative peace
00:23:05
and prosperity for all.
00:23:06
So I think that is what this
00:23:07
election boils down to, a small
00:23:09
segment of folks.
00:23:10
They're looking for who is the
00:23:11
change candidate And the change
00:23:13
candidate is not the person that has
00:23:14
been sitting at the table making the
00:23:16
decisions of the last three and a
00:23:18
half years.
00:23:19
Amy. Amy, I want to get your
00:23:21
perspective on this, on how perhaps,
00:23:23
you know, it is easy to get swept up
00:23:24
in the whole debate issue and
00:23:26
the impact it might have on voters
00:23:27
as well.
00:23:29
Well, I think anybody who's a
00:23:30
political operative for years
00:23:31
realizes that this is something that
00:23:33
we eat, sleep and breathe, you know,
00:23:34
every day. And the American people,
00:23:36
you know, are concerned about those
00:23:37
issues that matter to the most in
00:23:39
their family every day.
00:23:40
And so sometimes these monumental
00:23:42
moments in elections are not with
00:23:44
a you know, are focused on.
00:23:46
But once the, you know,
00:23:48
the conventions were over, this is
00:23:49
the general election.
00:23:50
You know, it's,
00:23:52
you know, serious during the
00:23:53
campaign and people are paying
00:23:54
attention and people are gearing up.
00:23:56
I think you saw a, you know, a
00:23:58
tremendous, tremendous,
00:24:01
monumental jump in momentum,
00:24:02
certainly after, you
00:24:04
know, the Democratic convention.
00:24:05
I think you saw that with money,
00:24:07
unprecedented amounts of money
00:24:08
raised from new
00:24:11
donors who hadn't given to the
00:24:12
campaign before. I think you saw a
00:24:14
huge number of volunteers
00:24:16
that came to to the
00:24:18
campaign as well.
00:24:19
And I will say that they are looking
00:24:21
for something. They're looking for
00:24:22
something that for people who share
00:24:23
their values.
00:24:24
I mean, to see change is going back
00:24:26
to four years that were chaos to
00:24:28
endure a global pandemic where there
00:24:29
was mismanagement with the
00:24:30
leadership - certainly at the top,
00:24:33
you know, at the presidential
00:24:35
level.
00:24:36
You're also looking at somebody who
00:24:38
likes to divide the country rather
00:24:39
than bring it together with his
00:24:41
divisive language and how he's
00:24:42
handled things.
00:24:43
So I don't think people are looking
00:24:44
for that. I think you really see
00:24:46
them looking forward to this,
00:24:48
you know, hope, change moment
00:24:50
they're seeing about what's possible
00:24:52
going forward and really focused on
00:24:53
the issues that matter to them.
00:24:55
I do think these moments, you know,
00:24:57
polls are only a snapshot in time.
00:24:59
These things happen and we gauge
00:25:01
them to see how people are doing.
00:25:03
But I think you've seen, you know,
00:25:04
progression. Voters are voting in
00:25:05
the next couple of weeks here in the
00:25:06
United States. So I think these
00:25:08
moments are important because people
00:25:10
will be deciding very soon who they
00:25:12
want to support.
00:25:13
But I think for all the races up and
00:25:15
down the ballot,
00:25:17
there will be a lot of things that
00:25:19
happen in the next few weeks that
00:25:20
will matter as,
00:25:22
you know, people still have an
00:25:23
opportunity to register to vote in
00:25:24
this country.
00:25:26
There's a lot of
00:25:28
energy and effort being put in to
00:25:30
voter contact and reaching
00:25:31
these individuals and each
00:25:33
individual state.
00:25:34
So I think this is the season,
00:25:36
you know, the election campaign
00:25:37
where all those things are
00:25:38
happening. So it will be a
00:25:39
heightened interest from from the
00:25:41
electorate.
00:25:41
Here's one really for both of you.
00:25:43
I'm going to start with Josh on this
00:25:44
one. Now, with so many swing states
00:25:46
in play, which is the best route
00:25:48
to the White House for either of the
00:25:49
candidates.
00:25:52
Well, you know, one of the
00:25:53
advantages President Trump enjoys is
00:25:55
he does have multiple paths to the
00:25:56
White House.
00:25:57
I think most of those do
00:25:59
run through Georgia.
00:26:00
We're optimistic the president's
00:26:02
going to win here.
00:26:03
We've worked very hard.
00:26:06
You know, we think we're in a good
00:26:08
position.
00:26:09
Vice President Harris really needs
00:26:11
to run the table
00:26:13
of the so-called blue wall states.
00:26:15
She's going to need to win
00:26:17
in Michigan. She's going to need to
00:26:19
win in Wisconsin.
00:26:19
She's going to need to win in Pennsylvania.
00:26:22
And so she's got to
00:26:24
win more of these
00:26:26
so-called swing states than
00:26:28
President Trump.
00:26:29
And again, if you look at the recent
00:26:31
polling, if you look at the
00:26:33
forecasts from Nate Silver and
00:26:34
others who've been at this a long
00:26:35
time, they are
00:26:37
looking at a situation where
00:26:40
President Trump has the advantage.
00:26:42
Of course, a lot of people think
00:26:43
about the popular vote,
00:26:45
but your viewers may not, you know,
00:26:47
be aware.
00:26:48
You know, these are 51
00:26:49
separate elections for presidential
00:26:51
electors. And so the fact that
00:26:53
Kamala Harris is going to win
00:26:54
California, New York by significant
00:26:56
margins doesn't really matter
00:26:59
in the scope of things.
00:27:00
You have to win the states that get
00:27:02
you to 270.
00:27:03
And I think President Trump
00:27:04
has a decided advantage in terms of
00:27:06
the number of pathways as well as
00:27:08
the structural advantages he has
00:27:10
in the states he needs to win.
00:27:11
Josh, I'm going to get back to
00:27:12
Georgia in just a moment, but I want
00:27:14
to get Amy's perspective on perhaps
00:27:16
the best path for Kamala Harris
00:27:18
to get to the White House.
00:27:19
Well, we have these traditional
00:27:21
battleground states, the ones that
00:27:22
Biden certainly won, you know, in
00:27:24
2020. Those are Arizona, Georgia,
00:27:26
Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania,
00:27:27
Wisconsin.
00:27:28
And those are the areas that, you
00:27:30
know, they'll be focused on as well
00:27:32
as, you know, other states.
00:27:33
I think that the bottom line is,
00:27:35
you know, the Trump campaign talked
00:27:37
about in June and July that they
00:27:38
were expanding, you know, into
00:27:40
states where they thought they can
00:27:41
win. That is just not the case.
00:27:43
And so it will be down to these
00:27:44
states. I think if you follow the
00:27:45
money where, you know,
00:27:47
money is being spent.
00:27:48
I know the DNC just did another,
00:27:51
you know, infusion of cash into some
00:27:52
of these battleground states and and
00:27:54
down ballot races in these states.
00:27:56
And then also where candidates are
00:27:57
spending their time, That's the the
00:27:59
best indicator to see where they,
00:28:01
you know, have the best paths to get
00:28:03
through. But I think it's still
00:28:04
those states.
00:28:05
I think that's where they're
00:28:06
investing. You know, the Harris was
00:28:08
ticket is investing time, energy
00:28:10
and money. And then they all have a
00:28:11
slew of surrogates that are out
00:28:13
there as well. They also have some
00:28:14
strong elected
00:28:16
leaders in those states that serve
00:28:18
as incredible surrogates that are
00:28:19
doing, you know, what they can in
00:28:20
those states to to try and gather
00:28:22
support and momentum as well.
00:28:25
Josh, you indicated how important
00:28:27
Georgia is. It looks like being one
00:28:29
of those knife edge states with
00:28:30
voters split down the middle in
00:28:32
recent polls.
00:28:33
The state's Republican governor,
00:28:34
Brian Kemp, is well-liked within the
00:28:36
party.
00:28:36
What do both of you think when you
00:28:38
hear Donald Trump insulting him and
00:28:39
his family? I mean, is it just a
00:28:41
storm in a teacup or could it cost
00:28:43
the Republicans the election?
00:28:46
Yeah, you know, I think a storm in a
00:28:48
teacup, something that the media and
00:28:49
the Democrats were really hoping
00:28:51
would turn into some sort of opening
00:28:53
for them.
00:28:54
And the doors really been slammed
00:28:56
shut on that. You know, Governor
00:28:57
Kemp has made it clear from the
00:28:58
beginning that he supports the
00:29:00
Republican ticket.
00:29:01
He supports President Trump.
00:29:03
He's appeared at fundraisers in
00:29:04
support of the Trump campaign just
00:29:06
within the last week or so.
00:29:07
And, of course, President Trump has
00:29:08
had very kind things to say about
00:29:10
Governor Kemp following
00:29:12
his appearance on Sean
00:29:14
Hannity's program.
00:29:15
So, you know, we're seeing a
00:29:17
unified Republican Party here in
00:29:18
Georgia.
00:29:19
We're seeing a candidate who enjoys
00:29:21
enormous lead in polling
00:29:23
on questions of who leads better on
00:29:25
the economy, who leads better on
00:29:27
immigration and, of course, the
00:29:28
like. And rally tragedy here in
00:29:29
Georgia has brought immigration
00:29:31
to the fore.
00:29:32
And we have some other structural
00:29:33
things happening. We have three
00:29:35
additional candidates who have
00:29:36
qualified for the presidential
00:29:37
ballot here Jill Stein, Cornell
00:29:39
West and Claudia de la Cruz.
00:29:41
In a typical Georgia presidential
00:29:43
election, there's a libertarian.
00:29:44
So there's a place for Republican
00:29:45
protest votes to go.
00:29:47
There's no similar opportunity
00:29:49
on the Democratic side.
00:29:50
That will not be the case this time.
00:29:52
They'll be an equalized playing
00:29:54
field with regard to that.
00:29:55
So, you know, I feel
00:29:58
optimistic. We've got a lot of work
00:29:59
to do over the next two months.
00:30:01
But if we turn out our voters, I
00:30:03
believe we're going to win and win
00:30:04
with the margin.
00:30:05
Now, Amy, on the other hand, Mr.
00:30:07
Trump has also praised Georgia
00:30:08
election officials by name
00:30:10
at his rallies. Now, these are
00:30:11
people who, under a new state law,
00:30:13
could decide when and whether to
00:30:15
certify the election result.
00:30:17
How justified are Democrats to worry
00:30:19
that the former president is laying
00:30:20
down the ground for challenging any
00:30:22
negative results for the GOP?
00:30:25
We should be very worried.
00:30:26
He doesn't have any respect for the
00:30:27
process. And in a lot of these
00:30:28
states and we saw what happened
00:30:30
after the 2020 election.
00:30:31
I think there are concerns.
00:30:33
Anybody who can in one breath, you
00:30:35
know, praise somebody and in the
00:30:36
next, tear them down, this goes to
00:30:37
the character, certainly of,
00:30:40
you know, the former president.
00:30:42
Again, I don't think he respects the
00:30:44
process. What at all.
00:30:45
And I just feel like that, you know,
00:30:47
he's about winning this election.
00:30:49
And if he doesn't, he will try to
00:30:50
justify in any way to try and
00:30:52
dismantle decisions that are made by
00:30:54
voters across the country.
00:30:55
Well, Josh, I want to get your
00:30:56
perspective on that same issue.
00:30:59
Well, if we want to talk about
00:31:00
dismantling the process,
00:31:02
you know, Democrats pushed
00:31:04
aside their nominee
00:31:06
who got 14 million votes in
00:31:09
primaries for someone who didn't win
00:31:10
a single presidential primary.
00:31:12
Here in Georgia, they've actually
00:31:14
gone to federal court to try
00:31:16
to prevent voters from having
00:31:18
additional choices on the ballot.
00:31:19
So Democrats are happy to be
00:31:21
guardians of democracy as long as
00:31:23
they can control who your choices
00:31:24
are through non-democratic
00:31:26
means. And, you know,
00:31:28
I think President Trump
00:31:30
has demonstrated throughout
00:31:32
this campaign a commitment
00:31:34
to do a vision for
00:31:36
the future that is optimistic, that
00:31:38
is bright.
00:31:39
That is a welcome relief for
00:31:40
American families that are paying
00:31:42
$28,000 more a year for
00:31:43
basic necessities because
00:31:45
of the inflationary policies
00:31:47
of Vice President Harris.
00:31:48
So, you know, I
00:31:50
see a situation here
00:31:52
in Georgia where we have a state
00:31:53
elections board that respects the
00:31:55
process.
00:31:57
We have a state elections board that
00:31:58
has adopted commonsense rules
00:32:00
about observing what happens
00:32:02
when people go to the polls, making
00:32:04
sure the number of voters agrees
00:32:06
with the number of votes cast in a
00:32:07
precinct.
00:32:08
And actually, the rule adopted
00:32:10
regarding certification doesn't
00:32:12
invite the opportunity to delay
00:32:13
certification.
00:32:14
What it does is it empowers
00:32:16
local elections officials to ask
00:32:18
questions before they vote to
00:32:20
certify an election, because
00:32:21
if we are not going to give them any
00:32:23
opportunity to exercise independent
00:32:25
judgment, there's really no point in
00:32:27
the local certification process at
00:32:28
all. So these are common sense
00:32:30
changes that if people actually had
00:32:32
the opportunity to vote on a ballot
00:32:33
for, these would probably get 90%
00:32:36
of the vote because no one really
00:32:37
objects to more eyes on the
00:32:39
process, transparency
00:32:41
in the process and the ability
00:32:43
for the folks that have been vested
00:32:45
with the oversight of our elections
00:32:47
to actually exercise that oversight.
00:32:49
Now, there was on another note,
00:32:51
there was a lot of eager
00:32:52
anticipation to know who the vice
00:32:54
presidential picks would be.
00:32:55
And one for both of you.
00:32:57
And I'll start with Amy on this.
00:32:58
How do you assess the impact and
00:33:00
performance of those vice
00:33:01
presidential pick so far?
00:33:03
Well, I do think that, you know,
00:33:05
people vote for the presidential
00:33:06
candidate. I think that the
00:33:08
necessarily the vice presidential
00:33:10
pick doesn't determine what the
00:33:11
election's going to be. But I think
00:33:13
a lot of times what the vice
00:33:14
presidential nominee should do is
00:33:16
compliment, you know, the leader,
00:33:17
show that, you know, that they bring
00:33:19
strength to the table, a wealth of
00:33:20
experience.
00:33:22
And I think that you see that
00:33:23
definitely in the Harris-Walz ticket.
00:33:24
You see somebody who's been a public
00:33:26
servant for a long time, certainly,
00:33:28
you know, has been a teacher,
00:33:30
a coach as somebody who's, you know,
00:33:32
served this country, you know, in
00:33:34
military like I do think you see
00:33:36
somebody who has been involved
00:33:38
both in Congress and both as an
00:33:39
executive and a governorship.
00:33:41
So he brings a wealth of experience
00:33:42
to the ticket. And I think that he's
00:33:43
been you see that synergy
00:33:46
with them out on the road and you
00:33:47
know what he's doing.
00:33:49
I think, you know, definitely, you
00:33:50
know, I think Trump picked his
00:33:53
know nominee and J.D.
00:33:54
Vance for those probably same
00:33:55
reasons to compliment him.
00:33:57
I don't think that some of the
00:33:58
remarks that he's made thus far
00:33:59
have been really embraced, you know,
00:34:01
by the rest of the country.
00:34:03
I do think you, you know, can
00:34:05
argue about where he can go and
00:34:06
where, you know, he can campaign in.
00:34:08
But I think both of these tickets,
00:34:10
you know, will be out there trying
00:34:11
to to gather support.
00:34:13
But I just see the Harris Walz one
00:34:15
as a very strong and
00:34:16
significant decision that could help
00:34:18
benefit that ticket.
00:34:20
Josh, getting your perspective on
00:34:22
this, too, I also want to ask you
00:34:23
about comments that have been out
00:34:25
in the media about former President
00:34:27
Trump saying he would hold
00:34:29
accountable those who he feels
00:34:31
haven't really held up
00:34:33
to what he expects from them during
00:34:34
this campaigning period.
00:34:35
And he's kind of threatening people
00:34:37
on that. What's your take on that,
00:34:38
too?
00:34:40
So I guess I'll start with the
00:34:42
question about the vice presidential
00:34:43
candidates.
00:34:44
You know, Senator Vance,
00:34:46
we had him here in Georgia about a
00:34:47
year ago, just a dynamic
00:34:50
speaker, a quintessential American
00:34:52
story, someone who grew up
00:34:54
in difficult circumstances,
00:34:56
which he obviously wrote about, a
00:34:58
movie was made about
00:35:00
and was able to overcome those
00:35:01
circumstances and really live out
00:35:03
the American dream.
00:35:04
And for people for whom that
00:35:06
American dream seems further out of
00:35:07
reach, three year,
00:35:09
three and a half years on in this
00:35:11
administration, that's a really
00:35:12
compelling speaker to have
00:35:14
out on the campaign trail.
00:35:16
And obviously, he does a great job
00:35:17
staying on message.
00:35:19
If you listen to his interviews on
00:35:20
television, he's doing a
00:35:22
great job for us there.
00:35:24
You know, I think the pick of
00:35:25
Governor Walz on the Democratic
00:35:27
side, just tells you a little bit
00:35:29
more about the divide in
00:35:31
the party over Israel
00:35:33
and issues of anti-Semitism in this
00:35:34
country. Governor Shapiro in
00:35:36
Pennsylvania was the obvious choice
00:35:38
for Vice President Harris to make,
00:35:40
But for her concerns of
00:35:42
losing some support in Michigan and
00:35:44
perhaps some other areas around the
00:35:45
country.
00:35:46
That's very worrying for those of us
00:35:48
that believe strongly in
00:35:50
the idea there needs to be a
00:35:51
bipartisan consensus in our country
00:35:53
in supporting the state of Israel.
00:35:55
But your question regarding
00:35:56
President Trump and what he's had to
00:35:58
say: look, I said this at
00:36:00
the beginning of the interview.
00:36:01
We have had an unprecedented
00:36:04
perversion of our criminal
00:36:06
justice system here in Georgia.
00:36:07
We have three presidential electors
00:36:09
who are under indictment for going
00:36:11
to a meeting to cast contingent
00:36:13
electoral votes consistent with
00:36:15
precedent in this country going
00:36:17
back to 1960.
00:36:20
And they've lost three and a half
00:36:21
years of their lives to a,
00:36:23
you know, ambitious prosecutor who
00:36:25
doesn't really care about enforcing
00:36:27
Georgia laws, but wants to go after
00:36:29
her political opponents.
00:36:30
Of course, people that
00:36:32
have been guilty of perverting
00:36:34
our criminal justice system for
00:36:36
political purposes ought to be held
00:36:37
accountable. I think most people
00:36:39
agree with that.
00:36:41
I don't think it's about revenge
00:36:43
or anything else. It's about what I
00:36:44
said earlier, which is what
00:36:45
separates the United States of
00:36:47
America and other countries with
00:36:49
robust democratic conditions
00:36:51
from countries that we all
00:36:53
agree don't have those,
00:36:55
is that we do have an independent
00:36:57
criminal justice system that calls
00:36:58
balls and strikes that
00:37:00
where you don't get a different
00:37:01
result when you go to court,
00:37:03
depending on which political
00:37:05
party you belong to.
00:37:06
And that's that's something I've
00:37:08
lived with here in Georgia for the
00:37:09
last three and a half years.
00:37:10
I watched our 16 electors,
00:37:12
volunteers, people that didn't get
00:37:14
paid a dime, who participated in a
00:37:15
26 minute meeting, be persecuted
00:37:18
all over the state.
00:37:19
An 80 year old grandmother who had
00:37:21
Fulton County D.A.
00:37:22
investigators come to her home and
00:37:24
interrogate her.
00:37:26
You know, it's it's disturbing.
00:37:27
It's not anything that I thought I
00:37:29
would ever see happen in this
00:37:30
country.
00:37:31
The freest country in the world.
00:37:33
So I think when President Trump
00:37:34
speaks about that, it's important.
00:37:36
And unfortunately, so much of the
00:37:38
other side of the story just has
00:37:40
never been told because
00:37:42
the people in a position to tell the
00:37:43
story want to tell a very
00:37:45
skewed version of
00:37:47
what went on over the last three and
00:37:49
a half years in some of these
00:37:51
so-called criminal investigations.
00:37:54
Amy, what's your perspective on
00:37:55
this?
00:37:57
I don't I don't think that there's
00:37:59
any place
00:38:02
that you would say that the you
00:38:03
know, that Vice President Harris
00:38:05
doesn't take these things seriously,
00:38:07
that that there was a lot
00:38:09
that happened after the 2020
00:38:11
election where people were,
00:38:13
you know, persecuted for doing their
00:38:14
job and and
00:38:16
definitely administering
00:38:18
the election in the way that they
00:38:20
were supposed to.
00:38:21
I think that we have to come
00:38:23
together and not, you know,
00:38:25
debate whether or not this
00:38:27
election, you know, going forward.
00:38:29
We've got too much at stake to not,
00:38:32
you know, come together around this
00:38:33
this this should be an area that
00:38:34
Democrats and Republicans are in
00:38:36
agreement about, making sure that
00:38:37
people know that they have the
00:38:39
opportunity to vote, that they have
00:38:40
more access to vote rather
00:38:42
than restricting it.
00:38:43
And then they also can feel
00:38:45
confident that the administering of
00:38:46
the elections going forward
00:38:49
and that people accept the,
00:38:51
you know, the the terms of the
00:38:53
election and what happened.
00:38:54
And that's too important.
00:38:55
And I and I just hope everybody
00:38:56
rallies around that and is able to
00:38:58
do that at the end of this election
00:38:59
season.
00:39:00
One of my recent guests, Professor
00:39:02
Allan Lichtman, is famous for
00:39:03
successfully predicting presidential
00:39:05
election results using his 13
00:39:07
Keys method. Now, in the past, he
00:39:09
predicted a Donald Trump victory
00:39:11
when the polls suggested Hillary
00:39:12
Clinton would win.
00:39:13
This year, he's predicting a Kamala
00:39:14
Harris victory.
00:39:16
Whereas polls have often proved
00:39:17
unreliable, he's never been wrong,
00:39:19
essentially. So I wonder, Amy,
00:39:20
should party leaders pay attention
00:39:22
to what Professor Lichtman says?
00:39:25
I think party leaders should pay
00:39:26
attention to the voters and on
00:39:28
the ground and what they're doing.
00:39:29
I have the utmost respect for him,
00:39:31
and it's been certainly interesting
00:39:33
how he's evaluated this and moved
00:39:34
this forward over the years.
00:39:36
But I think their focus right now is
00:39:38
on delivering, you know, a
00:39:40
message in these districts that
00:39:41
resonates with voters.
00:39:42
It's also like taking care
00:39:44
and focus on on the Senate and the
00:39:46
House races and the down ballot
00:39:47
races that are happening.
00:39:49
But having that direct conversation
00:39:50
with voters, I think whereas polls
00:39:52
are an indication in time, certainly
00:39:54
the historical nature of his
00:39:56
decision making, you know,
00:39:58
can it can be seen as is, you know,
00:40:00
something that that has certainly
00:40:01
been successful in the past.
00:40:02
But I think anybody who's in these
00:40:04
campaigns right now, anybody who's
00:40:06
trying to find, you know,
00:40:08
a winning combination
00:40:10
for the election has to really focus
00:40:12
on what the voters are saying and
00:40:13
what they need to talk to them
00:40:14
about.
00:40:15
Well, Josh, considering Professor
00:40:17
Lichtman's track record,
00:40:19
does it worry you at all that he
00:40:20
sees a Kamala Harris victory?
00:40:24
No, it doesn't. I think it's great
00:40:25
that we're finding an area of
00:40:26
agreement between both
00:40:28
of us on this.
00:40:31
You know, it's maybe an interesting
00:40:32
thing for pundits to talk about,
00:40:35
but as Amy said, this is about,
00:40:37
you know, making your case to
00:40:38
voters, making your case to
00:40:40
that relatively small population of
00:40:41
voters in about
00:40:44
30 or 40 counties around this
00:40:46
country that are going to decide
00:40:47
this election.
00:40:48
And and that goes back to that
00:40:50
messaging. I will say that I
00:40:52
don't know that the professor
00:40:53
accounted for the unprecedented
00:40:55
nature of the 20240 election
00:40:58
process where you went from having
00:41:00
one nominee of a major party to
00:41:02
another nominee of a major party.
00:41:05
And I might take issue with
00:41:06
how he
00:41:08
graded some of his keys this go
00:41:10
around.
00:41:11
But you know what?
00:41:12
We'll all find out on November 5th
00:41:14
or very shortly thereafter.
00:41:16
Very true. Amy Dacey and Josh
00:41:18
McEwen, thank you both for taking
00:41:19
part.
00:41:20
Thank you.
00:41:21
Thank you.
00:41:27
From Mike drop moments to gargantuan
00:41:29
gaffes. American presidential
00:41:30
debates have left us with some
00:41:32
unforgettable snippets down the
00:41:33
years.
00:41:34
TOe curling missteps and outrageous
00:41:36
putdowns delivered with comic timing
00:41:38
are part of the appeal of the
00:41:40
occasion.
00:41:41
There are few people on the planet
00:41:42
to know more about the history of
00:41:44
presidential debates than my next
00:41:45
guest.
00:41:46
Dr. Mitchell S. McKinney is
00:41:48
Professor of Communication at the
00:41:49
University of Akron and Dean of
00:41:51
the Bechtel College of Arts and
00:41:53
Sciences.
00:41:59
Dr. McKinney, great to have you on
00:42:00
the show now. I'm just going to
00:42:02
start by asking you, why do
00:42:03
presidential debates matter?
00:42:04
Do they actually change people's
00:42:06
minds?
00:42:08
Riz, good to be with you.
00:42:09
And what we have found over the last
00:42:12
several decades, actually since we
00:42:14
began presidential debates
00:42:16
as a part of our general election
00:42:18
campaigns here in the U.S.
00:42:19
in 1960,
00:42:21
that the debates,
00:42:23
by and large, do not change a
00:42:25
lot of minds. However, in
00:42:27
those few elections we've seen,
00:42:29
where we've featured televised
00:42:31
presidential debates, where it is a
00:42:33
close race leading
00:42:35
into the election.
00:42:37
And then also another
00:42:39
feature, if there are one
00:42:41
or more candidates relatively
00:42:43
unknown or new to the national
00:42:45
scene. Now we see both of
00:42:47
those conditions.
00:42:48
I mean, the polling still suggests
00:42:50
here this is going
00:42:52
to be an election likely
00:42:53
decided in the margins.
00:42:55
One, two points.
00:42:56
I think some of the latest polling
00:42:57
coming out over the weekend showed
00:42:58
nationally a
00:43:00
one point race in the battleground
00:43:02
states, several of the battleground
00:43:04
states tied.
00:43:05
And then in this debate,
00:43:07
Kamala Harris,
00:43:09
the sitting vice president, really
00:43:12
this debate likely will draw 50 or
00:43:13
60 million viewers who
00:43:15
many, some of them
00:43:18
trying to understand, do they feel
00:43:20
comfortable with her?
00:43:22
What is she all about?
00:43:23
Certainly, Donald Trump is well
00:43:25
known, so
00:43:27
those conditions are at play.
00:43:28
A close race.
00:43:30
A candidate, too, in some ways is
00:43:32
coming out to introduce herself
00:43:34
to this large audience.
00:43:35
And so this could be a very
00:43:37
consequential debate in the outcome
00:43:39
of this election.
00:43:40
So was there an actual turning
00:43:42
point? I mean, when and why did
00:43:44
debates become an essential part of
00:43:45
the race to the White House?
00:43:48
Well, certainly we began
00:43:50
in 1960 and
00:43:52
that debate again
00:43:54
and that series of debates again,
00:43:57
a very close election
00:43:59
and relatively unknown
00:44:02
youthful John Kennedy
00:44:04
contrasting with
00:44:06
Vice President Nixon.
00:44:08
And so
00:44:10
our analysis showed that that was
00:44:12
a consequential debate in the
00:44:14
outcome of the 1960 -
00:44:16
series of debates - in the 1960
00:44:17
election.
00:44:18
We then resumed debates in 1976,
00:44:21
and they have remained a feature
00:44:23
of our electoral process
00:44:26
in terms of the turning point,
00:44:27
again, the opportunity
00:44:30
for these debates to have a
00:44:32
significant impact.
00:44:33
We might talk about what happened a
00:44:35
couple of months ago on the debate
00:44:36
stage with Donald Trump and Joe
00:44:38
Biden. Certainly that
00:44:40
proved significant in this
00:44:42
election. And I would point
00:44:44
out it is the only
00:44:46
time when our presidential
00:44:49
contenders, major party candidates
00:44:50
meet face to face in the
00:44:52
long campaigns that
00:44:54
we have.
00:44:55
This will be true on the
00:44:57
debate stage with Kamala Harris and
00:44:59
Donald Trump. They've never met each
00:45:01
other before.
00:45:02
We're we're watching to see how
00:45:04
do they interact with each other?
00:45:06
How do they respond to one another?
00:45:09
And that's important in terms of
00:45:11
our assessment, really, of their
00:45:13
leadership, their character, of the
00:45:15
kind of leader that they would be.
00:45:16
So for a number of reasons, we've
00:45:18
seen that these debates really
00:45:20
have become a significant part of
00:45:22
our general election process.
00:45:25
I will come back round to the Joe
00:45:27
Biden Donald Trump debate, but
00:45:28
I want to just look at it a little
00:45:30
historically and ask, is it true
00:45:31
that during the early debates, radio
00:45:33
listeners sometimes had a different
00:45:35
impression to TV viewers of the
00:45:37
candidates?
00:45:39
Well, certainly in 1960, the
00:45:41
reach of television and the
00:45:42
saturation of television had not
00:45:44
reached its point yet.
00:45:45
Now, that debate in 1960,
00:45:48
as these presidential debates
00:45:49
continue to draw the
00:45:51
largest viewing audience
00:45:53
of any campaign event, whether
00:45:55
it's their convention addresses
00:45:57
or any of the stump speeches
00:45:59
or rallies that the candidates will
00:46:01
follow.
00:46:02
We've seen 70, 80
00:46:04
million people assemble
00:46:06
- U.S. viewers, voters assemble -
00:46:09
to watch these debates.
00:46:11
And and certainly in 1960,
00:46:14
a large viewing audience
00:46:16
and then also a number
00:46:18
of voters
00:46:20
of citizens who were listening to
00:46:22
radio.
00:46:23
Some of that early analysis showed
00:46:26
that, again, the the visual
00:46:28
impact of debates and I call
00:46:30
it the performative nature of
00:46:32
debates, where we see the candidates
00:46:34
on stage performing
00:46:37
their their audition as
00:46:39
president, if you will.
00:46:40
Now, in 1960,
00:46:43
some analysis showed that those who
00:46:45
were listening to the debate, not
00:46:47
watching Richard Nixon in his
00:46:49
performance thought that he had won.
00:46:51
Yet John Kennedy, those who watched
00:46:53
the debate and the more youthful
00:46:55
John Kennedy and his
00:46:57
debate style, his abilities
00:46:59
in those debates yielded
00:47:01
him, rendered him the winner of the
00:47:02
debate. And I think that that points
00:47:05
to the power, the impact
00:47:07
of television, again, of the visuals
00:47:09
of the performative nature that we
00:47:11
see that the candidates must
00:47:13
display on the debate stage.
00:47:15
And of course, there was that issue
00:47:16
of Richard Nixon having perspiration
00:47:18
on his face, which I think made him
00:47:19
look nervous.
00:47:21
Exactly.
00:47:22
And again, those optics
00:47:25
and and certainly
00:47:27
oftentimes those become
00:47:29
the moments that get replayed
00:47:31
over and over and over.
00:47:33
Those moments of how a candidate
00:47:35
will laugh, will wince, will
00:47:37
glare at their opponents,
00:47:39
will respond
00:47:41
again, that
00:47:43
that is what the debate moments
00:47:45
bring to us in terms of our
00:47:47
assessment of the candidates'
00:47:49
abilities to perform
00:47:51
their role as president.
00:47:52
Would you say that different rules
00:47:54
produce different outcomes, whether
00:47:56
you have an audience, a microphone
00:47:57
on or muted and so on?
00:48:00
Certainly we've singing
00:48:02
various tweaks to what we
00:48:04
make. All the format changes
00:48:06
the ability for journalists to ask
00:48:08
follow up questions.
00:48:10
Often times those types
00:48:12
of follow ups to reveal that
00:48:14
candidates perhaps
00:48:16
are not in command of facts
00:48:18
and figures or they're they're
00:48:19
contradictory on their
00:48:22
positions.
00:48:24
The feature such as mics on
00:48:26
or off. Now, we went to
00:48:28
the turning off of our candidate
00:48:30
mics four years ago in the 2020
00:48:32
round of presidential debates.
00:48:34
When particularly Donald Trump in
00:48:36
the first his first debate with
00:48:38
Joe Biden simply ignored
00:48:40
the time rules and
00:48:42
also when the opponent had
00:48:44
their opportunity.
00:48:46
His opponent, Joe Biden, had his
00:48:48
opportunity to speak.
00:48:49
Donald Trump's strategy in that
00:48:51
debate was to command
00:48:53
the time to dominate, to talk
00:48:55
over, to interrupt.
00:48:57
In some ways, I think a strategy to
00:48:59
try to to throw Joe Biden
00:49:01
off, to try to to befuddle
00:49:03
Biden, to to illustrate that
00:49:05
that Trump was more dominant, could
00:49:07
control.
00:49:08
And so the debate commission decided
00:49:10
that, well, going forward, we will
00:49:12
turn the mics off when it is not
00:49:13
your time to speak.
00:49:14
So you will not abuse the rules.
00:49:16
Some have suggested, well, that may
00:49:18
work against
00:49:20
Kamala Harris, because if
00:49:22
you keep Trump's mic on and
00:49:24
Trump performs the way Trump usually
00:49:26
performs, well, he may
00:49:28
come across as as the
00:49:30
the petulant bully,
00:49:32
the constant interrupter.
00:49:34
But if you turn his mic off,
00:49:36
you control him, as did happen
00:49:38
in his first debate a couple
00:49:40
of months ago with Joe Biden,
00:49:43
he appears more staid,
00:49:46
some suggest presidential.
00:49:49
And so that feature,
00:49:51
that format feature of the debates
00:49:53
certainly has gotten caught up in
00:49:54
the strategy of who does it favor.
00:49:57
And it is ironic that that
00:49:59
we came to the turning off of the
00:50:00
mics because of Donald Trump.
00:50:02
And now it is seen as helping
00:50:04
Donald Trump and potentially
00:50:07
not helping his opponent,
00:50:09
Kamala Harris.
00:50:10
So the irony is that actually, as
00:50:12
you indicate, his behavior
00:50:14
was totally different in his debate
00:50:15
last debate with Joe Biden.
00:50:17
And if anything, he looked
00:50:18
presidential and he almost left
00:50:20
Joe Biden to kind of dig his own
00:50:22
grave, it seemed.
00:50:24
Exactly.
00:50:25
Donald Trump did not engage
00:50:28
in the the the domination,
00:50:30
the constant interruptions,
00:50:33
the asides, the taunts.
00:50:36
And it was Joe Biden's
00:50:38
performance in that debate
00:50:41
that, for many, demonstrated
00:50:43
that he was not up for reelection.
00:50:46
He was not, simply
00:50:49
he did not perform in a manner that
00:50:50
suggested that he could, should or
00:50:52
could continue as president.
00:50:53
And, of course, then in the several
00:50:55
days, the few weeks that
00:50:57
unfolded after that debate,
00:51:00
with pressure from
00:51:03
largely the Democratic
00:51:05
operatives, the Democratic Party
00:51:06
supporters, even supporters of Joe
00:51:08
Biden persuading him to step
00:51:10
aside.
00:51:11
So in that regard,
00:51:13
I think we've pointed
00:51:15
to a few debates in the
00:51:17
history I've mentioned the 1960,
00:51:19
particularly the first Kennedy-Nixon
00:51:21
debate, where John Kennedy really
00:51:22
outperformed Richard Nixon.
00:51:25
It is likely that we will point
00:51:27
to that presidential debate that
00:51:29
happened in late June
00:51:31
as as very consequential
00:51:33
and the influence, perhaps the
00:51:35
outcome of this election.
00:51:38
We saw Donald Trump's
00:51:41
unhappiness surprise
00:51:43
even when what he predicted
00:51:45
came about, that Joe
00:51:47
Biden would not be able to stand
00:51:49
90 minutes and debate
00:51:52
him go toe to toe.
00:51:53
And that happened.
00:51:54
Joe Biden stepped aside.
00:51:56
We had now a a new Democratic
00:51:58
nominee in this race.
00:52:00
And and it it seemed to upset
00:52:02
Donald Trump that he now has a new
00:52:04
opponent. But it all came about
00:52:06
because of really
00:52:08
that early debate that
00:52:10
Trump himself was
00:52:12
pushing.
00:52:13
Well, Dr. McKinney, it's great to
00:52:14
have the chance to pick your
00:52:15
experience, pick your brains on the
00:52:16
experience you've had. So I've got
00:52:17
to ask you to wrap up.
00:52:18
There have been a number of stand
00:52:19
out moments which can continue
00:52:21
to entertain viewers from past
00:52:23
presidential and vice presidential
00:52:24
debates. Take me through some of
00:52:26
your favorites.
00:52:28
Well, you know, I mentioned
00:52:30
1960 debates.
00:52:33
We could go to 1976.
00:52:34
And I also mentioned a format
00:52:36
feature, a follow up,
00:52:39
when the incumbent president,
00:52:41
Gerald Ford, indicated
00:52:43
that there was no Soviet domination
00:52:45
of Eastern Europe and countries
00:52:47
that he had visited, it was in the
00:52:49
follow up that the journalist
00:52:51
pressed him that, Are you saying
00:52:52
this? And he doubled down.
00:52:55
That flub,
00:52:57
that lack of
00:52:59
of of knowledge went on to
00:53:01
hurt Gerald
00:53:03
Ford. But it's not just
00:53:05
those consequential moments.
00:53:06
It's also even Ronald
00:53:08
Reagan that there was an age issue
00:53:10
with Ronald Reagan and his
00:53:11
reelection in 1984.
00:53:13
And he deftly handled a question
00:53:15
regarding his age with humor.
00:53:18
And so there there's a moment
00:53:20
we could go through the decades and
00:53:22
pick out a number of moments
00:53:24
in these debates.
00:53:26
Well, Dr. McKinney, I want to thank
00:53:28
you so much for joining us.
00:53:29
Great to have your experience on
00:53:30
this.
00:53:32
Very good to be with you.
00:53:38
I'll leave you with one final
00:53:40
thought. Before the cameras rolled
00:53:42
last night in Philadelphia, the most
00:53:43
watched presidential debate in
00:53:45
history took place between Donald
00:53:47
Trump and Hillary Clinton in
00:53:48
September 2016.
00:53:50
That drew an estimated TV audience
00:53:52
of 84 million.
00:53:54
In fact, Donald Trump was involved
00:53:55
in three of the four highest
00:53:57
audiences in election debate
00:53:58
history.
00:53:59
His first battle with Joe Biden in
00:54:01
2020 and his second Clinton
00:54:03
debate ranked number three and four.
00:54:05
Only the combined efforts of Jimmy
00:54:07
Carter and Ronald Reagan in 1980
00:54:09
could keep Mr. Trump from a clean
00:54:11
sweep of the top three before
00:54:13
last night.
00:54:14
As for the debate which brought us
00:54:15
to this moment, President Biden's
00:54:17
disastrous performance against
00:54:18
Donald Trump in June, a mere
00:54:20
51 million viewers regarded the
00:54:22
matchup as a must-see moment.
00:54:24
And yet it proved to be one of the
00:54:26
most pivotal events in the current
00:54:28
campaign, at least so far.
00:54:31
I'm Riz Khan.
00:54:32
From me and the team, thanks for watching.
00:54:34
We'll see you soon.
With the US presidential debate being over, the debate about the debate began immediately afterwards. Armed with only a pen, a pad of paper, a bottle of water and their wits. Kamala Harris and Donald Trump came face to face for the first time in their lives last night on stage in Philadelphia.
The vice president and the former president were prepared to do battle before an audience numbering tens of millions on TV and online across the US. But, of course, the candidates had been preparing for this day for weeks. They’ve been working with a close-knit team of policy advisers and debating coaches. In this episode, we’ll get an insight into what was happening behind closed doors in the run up to this key moment in the election campaign.
We’ll also look back at some of the zingers and gaffes which became make or break moments during previous presidential debates. And we’ll bring together Democratic and Republican leaders in a lively debate on the state of the race with just eight weeks until polling day.
Show guests:
Brett O’Donnell – Debate coach
Amy Dacey – President Barack Obama’s CEO of the Democratic National Committee
Josh McKoon – Chairman of the Republican Party in Georgia
