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One year after the Oct 7 attacks: Experts, families reflect on the Israel-Hamas war
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Welcome to Global News Today,
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bringing you exclusive insights and
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fresh perspectives from leading
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experts and influential decision
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makers every weekday on Al Arabiya
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News.
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I'm Rosanna Lockwood.
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Coming up on the show,
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on the one year anniversary of the
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October 7th attacks, Hamas
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launches a barrage of rockets at Tel
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Aviv while Israelis hold
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memorials to mourn the victims of
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the deadly assault.
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I speak to some of the family
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members of those lost in the
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attacks.
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At least nine Palestinian children
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are among 17 people killed after
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the Israeli military ordered
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civilians to flee Jabalya refugee
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camp in northern Gaza.
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And begins heavy bombardment.
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And large explosions shake
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southern Beirut as Israeli forces
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bombard the Lebanese capital,
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while at least ten people are
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wounded in Haifa from a Hezbollah
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rocket attack.
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Welcome. On the one year anniversary
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of the deadly October 7th attacks,
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Hamas escalated tensions by
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launching a significant volley of
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rockets aimed at Tel Aviv.
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This came as Israelis across the
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country held memorials to honor and
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mourn the victims of the previous
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year's brutal assault.
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The Hamas led attacks on October 7th
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saw the deaths of 1139
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people and the abduction of more
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than 200 individuals.
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Hundreds of so who remain captive.
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Well, the families of those who were
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killed and abducted at the Supernova
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festival in Israel gathered
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at the site of the attack to
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remember their loved ones.
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Today, it's
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it's a closure for me.
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It's a I come from there
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and this is the first time
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that I see.
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And in my imagination,
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I
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see the
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all the guys run in the field.
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And I said it's
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possible.
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It's not real.
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And now
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it's really. I afraid
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to come here.
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But I have to
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say to myself that if I
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were not to not come,
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the Hamas will we win
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win.
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Described by its president as
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Israel's darkest hour.
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The events of October 7th that
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shaken the nation of almost 10
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million people to its core and
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sparking a conflict that continues
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to reverberate across the region.
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As Israel commemorates the first
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anniversary of the Hamas attacks.
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Trent Murray looks back at that
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fateful day and the 12 months of war
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that have followed.
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October 7th, 2023
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6:30 a.m..
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The first sirens sound across
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Jerusalem.
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Hamas unleashes a barrage
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of more than 2000 missiles towards
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Israel.
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The warnings quickly spread to
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Ashkelon, Ashdod and
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Tel Aviv.
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Armed militants breached Gaza's
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perimeter fence, fanning out
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to nearby Israeli towns and
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villages.
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Local security forces are caught
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unprepared, and more than 1200
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Israelis, mostly civilians,
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are killed in the dark hours that
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follow.
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Hamas terrorists have waged the
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deadliest attack on Jews
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since the Holocaust.
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As isolated.
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Citizens of Israel.
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We are at.
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War, not in an operation or in
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fighting rounds, but at.
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War.
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Over 250 Israeli
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hostages are taken back into
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Gaza by the militants.
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Their desperate families watch
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anxiously as the IDF
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mobilizes to respond to the attack.
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Israeli fighter jets quickly
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begin to launch retaliatory strikes
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in Gaza as tanks and
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troops mass on the border.
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We are afraid.
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We left afraid.
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I swear I cannot walk.
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I cannot walk one step.
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But we are afraid.
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May God protect them and us.
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The IDF intensifies its attack
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on Gaza, striking what it says
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are Hamas targets in the strip.
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As the death toll quickly climbs
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into the thousands, Israeli
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tanks pour into Gaza.
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On October 28th,
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intense fighting and aerial
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bombardment continue until November
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22nd, when the Israeli cabinet
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approves a temporary cease fire
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in return for hostages.
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105 captives are released
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over the four day truce, but the
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cease fire collapses and
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the bombing begins again.
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Over the 12 months of Israeli
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bombardment, over 40,000
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Palestinians have been killed in
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Gaza, according to the health
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ministry.
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The scale of killing, which
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has shocked the world.
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Protests calling for a ceasefire
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spread and away from Gaza.
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Israel's military responds with
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force against members of the
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self-described axis of resistance.
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Assassinating Hamas leader Ismail
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Haniya in Tehran.
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Hezbollah General Secretary Hassan
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Nasrallah in Beirut and senior
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IRGC officers in Damascus.
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United Nations Calls for calm.
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The raging fires in the Middle
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East are fast becoming
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an inferno.
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Large scale attacks spread to
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Lebanon in September as
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Israel targets Hezbollah
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bombs hit the capital and
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Israeli troops cross into southern
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Lebanon.
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A response, the IDF says,
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to more than 8500 rocket
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attacks since October 8th.
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But even after 12 months of death
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and destruction, worries remain
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that more may be yet to come
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in the wake of the most recent
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Iranian missile attack.
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Even 12 months on from October
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7th, the road ahead shows
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little sign of an off ramp to
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de-escalate the tensions which is
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simmering across the Middle East.
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Trends Murray in Tel Aviv for
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Al Arabiya news.
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I'm joined now by Eleanor Kuminga,
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a peace activist who sunyani died
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when Hamas attacked Israel on
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October 7th.
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He would have been 21 this week.
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Thank you very much for making time
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for so long on a very, very
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difficult day for you.
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How have you been spending today?
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We've been just
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taking it as a day of reflection
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internally with our family.
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I haven't felt that it's something
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that I want to experience with the
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greater public. So we're we're just
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spending it with family.
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That's completely understandable.
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And to that end,
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we're very grateful that you've made
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time to speak to us.
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What leads you to continue speaking
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to the media and
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talking publicly about what
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happened?
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I think there's a lot of
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misconceptions, especially
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abroad and within Israel and
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Palestine, about what's going on.
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People are very stuck in a certain
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narrative and they, you
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know, there was so much there's so
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much pain that this war
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is caused on both sides, that people
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are focused on their own internal
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pain and they can't see
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beyond that. They can't
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even think about how
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we're going to get out of this
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situation.
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And, you know, in most cases,
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people are focused on the pain on
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one side and there's enormous pain
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on both sides.
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And I try to use
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my own experiences to help people
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see that, because until we start
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seeing one another and each other's
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pain, we're never going to get out
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of this mess.
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Yeah, you come at this
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from that compassionate
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perspective and it appears you
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always have done with your family,
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with your allies. Well, I've read an
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article, an interview you gave
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previously to Time magazine
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in which you talked about
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how as a family, you work together
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to understand the Palestinian
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perspective.
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And that was something that you and
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I did as well.
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Have you managed to retain that
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sense of compassion throughout the
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past year?
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Now, to tell you the truth, I don't
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even it's compassion, but
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it's more than compassion.
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Yanai was very analytical.
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He had amazing strategic
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thinking.
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And he also was a very
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good had a very deep understanding
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of the psyche of people around him.
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And he was interested in the psyche
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of people around them because he
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believed around him, because he
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believed that if you want to work
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with somebody and you want to
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achieve something with another
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person, the most important
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thing is to see them and to
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understand where they're coming
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from. Because only then will you be
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able to solve anything together.
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And he approached any
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situation in life with that, with
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that attitude. So with his own
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soldiers, he wrote about his
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leadership ethos, and he wrote that
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in order to be the leader or his
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top value as a leader was
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to love his soldiers and make them
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feel loved and cared for
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because he believed that they would
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become better soldiers if they felt
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that someone could actually see them
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as individuals.
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And he worked very hard at that.
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I can tell you more about it,
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but on a national level as well.
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How can you find a solution to a
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complex problem if you don't
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understand where the other side is
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coming from? And that goes on in
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both directions.
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I find Palestinians who don't
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understand Israelis at all,
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and I see a lot of Israelis who
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don't understand those Palestinians
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at all. And that's why we
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misinterpret each other's actions.
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And it helps
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mainly the most radical elements
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of society on both sides like
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Hamas.
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And I think that the only way we can
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ever solve our problems is to work
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at understanding one another and to
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trying to connect to one another on
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a human level, especially among
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the people who are more moderate and
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are looking for a solution that
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allows us to live together in peace.
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And there are people like that on
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both sides.
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You say it's for compassion.
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Yes. There is an element of
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compassion, but it's also
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the only way. I have three other
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children. It's the only way
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I can see them.
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Having a future any other way leads
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to a dead end.
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And I don't want what happened
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tonight to happen to my other three
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children. And and so
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I'm trying to understand my
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Palestinian neighbors, trying to
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understand their pain.
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And where they come from is a way
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that I see that
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the only way I have they see to
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build a better future for the
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children that I have left.
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And that is always what strikes me
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about the complexity of
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the situation between Israel,
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between Hezbollah, between Hamas,
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Iran, of course, in there as well.
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But the countries that were
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involved, we hear Netanyahu,
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for example, giving an address to
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the Lebanese people, saying, my war
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is not with you, it is with
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Hezbollah.
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And it causes you to
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think, well, what are our relations
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going to be like? Neighborly
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relations between Israel and
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Lebanon, Israel and the Palestinian
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people here onwards, once
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the conflict is over
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and you're saying that there are
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moderates in society and that if
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you could have more education
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amongst the moderates,
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that you think that you can build
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those bridges, you can mend those
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neighborly relations.
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As an October 7th sent us back.
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Set us back decades
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on that level because, again,
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there's some people experience so
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much pain, it's very hard for them
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to make that jump forward.
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I'm looking at my own people, people
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in Israel who saw their neighbors
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pulled out of bed and slaughtered in
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the communities around Gaza.
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Whole families, parents to little
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children, infants taken
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to Gaza as hostages.
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It's very hard to convince somebody
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who's seen those things with their
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own eyes to all of a sudden
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now build trust with with other
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Palestinians.
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It's definitely set us back.
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And for Palestinians, seeing the
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bombing and the destruction in Gaza,
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it creates enormous anger towards
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Israelis. And I think, you know,
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to to bridge those
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gaps will be extremely
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difficult and take a very long time.
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I do want to create a difference
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between what's happening with with
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Hezbollah and Iran and what's
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happening with Palestinians.
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Israel has a conflict.
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The Israeli people and the
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Palestinian people that we
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live together in the same land
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and we've been causing one another
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enormous pain for the last 100
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years. And the only way for that
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pain to end is for us to learn how
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to live together in the land that
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we that we share.
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There are radicals on the
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Palestinian side, like Hamas, that
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chose the actions they chose on
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October 7th, who don't want Jews
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living at all.
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And they say it's not for Jews
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and Jews need to leave.
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And they expect 7 million Jewish
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people who live there like myself
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to disappear.
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That's not a realistic hope.
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And the radical elements in Israeli
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society, some of whom are sitting in
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Netanyahu's government, say the
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same thing about Palestinians.
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They think it's all for the Jews and
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that the 7 million Palestinians who
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live within that area are going to
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disappear.
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And I have news for both sides.
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Nobody's going anywhere.
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We have to learn how to live
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together.
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Can you very different than
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then what's going on with Hezbollah
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and with Iran?
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Because Hezbollah and Iran are
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external to Israel.
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They're not part of Israeli
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society and they have other agendas.
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And I don't feel that I'm an expert
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enough on those agendas to
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to speak to them.
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But again, it's not to people's
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living together in the same land.
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It's an external group
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that is threatening Israel on
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a day to day basis.
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And so I see it as as a different
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situation.
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We had the memorial for my son last
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Tuesday, and in the middle of the
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memorial for my son, we were
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hit by tons of rockets from Iran.
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And, you know, that in my mind
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is a completely different scenario
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than what's happening with
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Palestinians.
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It's really interesting hearing you
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lay it out from your perspective
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because obviously you have a long,
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long experience, a as a peace
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activist within within Israel
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and talking about the differentiation
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as you see it. But then talk to me
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about that, what that was like.
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And I'm sorry to make you relive the
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experience or to ask you to
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to be at the memorial for your son
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and then to be to have
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that type of attack happening.
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What did it feel like at the time?
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Like déja vu.
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Actually, the last time we live in a
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small community west of Jerusalem.
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And so we haven't been a target of
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most of the attacks.
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And the last time,
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except for the April Iran attack,
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the last time we had an air raid
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siren in our town was during an ice
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funeral, and it was in October.
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His funeral was on October 9th.
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It was a bit rainy just like this
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last Tuesday was.
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We were still hearing air raid
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sirens. We were still being
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attacked. Nothing had changed.
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It felt completely like a deja vu,
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like a year hadn't passed from one
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one day to the other.
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We're in the same situation, the
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same quagmire that
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no one knows how to get out of.
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And what makes me despair
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is that I feel at least I've
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actually on both sides, the people
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who are leading us are people who
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aren't looking out for the best
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interests of their peoples.
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I can assure you that Hamas was
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not looking out for the best
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interests of the Palestinian people
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when they did that.
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When they committed the atrocities
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of October 7th.
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Their own people have suffered
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greatly since October
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7th, and the Hamas are
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hiding in the tunnels and leaving
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civilians outside to die
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in the in the attacks.
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That's not looking out for the best,
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but the best interest of your
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people. Taking the aid that was
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received from Europe and from the US
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and using it to build tunnels and to
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buy to buy missiles rather
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than building schools and
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infrastructure and hospitals
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and things that can benefit your
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people. That's not what the
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Palestinian people need.
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But on the Israeli side as well,
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I can tell you that I've lost all
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faith in Benjamin Netanyahu
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and his leadership.
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I think that somebody who's taken
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zero responsibility
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for the disaster of October 7th
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is somebody who can't continue to
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lead the country.
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He's motivated by his own
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his own self-preservation
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politically.
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And that's a disaster for Israel.
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He's got you know, he's made the
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partnership with the most radical
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elements of Israeli society,
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including convicted criminals like
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Itamar Ben-gvir and messianic
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radicals like Smotrich
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and House on Merit.
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Who are people who.
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Are not using the same logical
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tools that most people use to
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analyze the situation.
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They're looking at it from messianic
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biblical terms, which,
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if that's not how you see the world,
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is not a relevant way to to
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approach the situation.
00:16:48
And Netanyahu has created a.
00:16:50
A coalition with them and is
00:16:52
allowing them to determine the
00:16:54
agenda of what happens in Israel.
00:16:55
And it's to the great detriment
00:16:57
of the Israeli and Palestinian
00:16:59
peoples.
00:17:00
And both peoples deserve much better
00:17:02
leadership who's actually looking
00:17:03
out for their interests And a good
00:17:05
leadership that would be looking out
00:17:06
for their interests would be working
00:17:08
on some starting some kind of
00:17:09
a peace process.
00:17:10
It won't be easy.
00:17:11
It won't be easy.
00:17:12
There's huge mistrust on both
00:17:14
sides.
00:17:15
The issues are extraordinarily
00:17:17
complex.
00:17:18
There's a hundred years of
00:17:20
hatred and anger to get over.
00:17:22
There is no easy solution.
00:17:24
We have to start working on it.
00:17:25
We don't have any other choice.
00:17:27
And unfortunately, both people like
00:17:29
Yassin while and the
00:17:31
current government in Israel are
00:17:32
leading us in the wrong direction
00:17:33
toward that goal.
00:17:35
Is there enough domestic
00:17:38
unrest or not unrest?
00:17:40
Is there enough domestic pressure
00:17:42
and criticism and pressure on
00:17:44
Netanyahu and his cabinet, like
00:17:45
the pressure you've just described
00:17:47
to me? You're very clear in your
00:17:48
position on the failures
00:17:50
as you see them of his government.
00:17:52
Do you feel that there are enough
00:17:54
others that there will be a change?
00:17:59
Hard to say.
00:18:00
First of all, I feel that on both
00:18:02
sides again, I speak a lot to
00:18:03
Palestinian friends as well.
00:18:05
And it's almost like a mirror
00:18:06
picture. You have the same exact
00:18:08
phenomenon happening, happening on
00:18:09
both sides.
00:18:11
Israelis who only read the Israeli
00:18:13
press and the Israeli media
00:18:14
don't have a full picture of what's
00:18:16
going on. And Palestinians who only
00:18:18
read Palestinian press and
00:18:19
Palestinian media don't have a full
00:18:21
picture of what's going on.
00:18:23
So I'll speak to the Israeli side
00:18:25
for the average Israeli.
00:18:27
We're still reliving October 7th.
00:18:29
Every day you open the paper and you
00:18:31
read another story of an atrocity
00:18:33
that happened on October 7th.
00:18:34
And I can guarantee you there's no
00:18:35
shortage of them.
00:18:36
You can read about, you know,
00:18:38
grandparents that were slaughtered
00:18:39
in their beds, about a one
00:18:41
year old baby who's still missing in
00:18:43
Gaza, the little redheaded
00:18:45
and little two redheaded boys who
00:18:47
were taken and haven't read the
00:18:49
Vivos family and haven't been
00:18:50
returned.
00:18:51
There's so many horrible, horrible
00:18:53
stories about young people mowed
00:18:55
down at the Nova Music Festival.
00:18:57
And so if you're living in that
00:18:58
reality.
00:19:00
It doesn't make sense to move
00:19:01
forward in any kind of an
00:19:03
any kind of diplomatic solution.
00:19:05
And people are willing to kind
00:19:07
of buy into the propaganda that's
00:19:09
that's being sent out by Netanyahu's
00:19:11
government. And I think that at
00:19:12
least even if they're angry
00:19:15
at Netanyahu and want to hold him
00:19:16
accountable, they feel that it's
00:19:17
something that needs to be done
00:19:19
after the war, that the war is
00:19:20
somehow going to be finished.
00:19:22
No one knows how, and that after
00:19:24
the war is over, that's the
00:19:25
appropriate time to hold Netanyahu
00:19:27
accountable.
00:19:28
On the Palestinian side, there's a
00:19:30
lot of disbelief about what happened
00:19:31
on October 7th.
00:19:32
Palestinians who don't read English
00:19:34
or Hebrew, a lot of them don't
00:19:36
believe that, that the atrocities of
00:19:38
October 7th really happened because
00:19:40
they're not exposed to them in
00:19:41
Palestinian media.
00:19:43
And so they feel like it's all
00:19:44
Israeli propaganda and the only
00:19:46
thing they see are the bombings
00:19:48
in Gaza,
00:19:49
which makes them very, very hesitant
00:19:52
to to move forward in any kind of
00:19:54
process with Israel.
00:19:55
I find that the people actually that
00:19:57
have the best understanding of the
00:19:58
situation are Palestinian citizens
00:20:00
of Israel, because they tend to read
00:20:02
both Arabic media and Hebrew
00:20:04
media.
00:20:05
And also a lot of them were directly
00:20:07
impacted by October 7th.
00:20:09
There were many Palestinian citizens
00:20:11
of Israel who were killed, taken
00:20:13
hostage or have been internally
00:20:15
displaced within Israel.
00:20:16
So they know it's not propaganda.
00:20:17
They know it's real.
00:20:19
But many of them also have relatives
00:20:20
in Gaza. So they're really seeing
00:20:22
both sides and getting
00:20:24
the most full picture,
00:20:26
whether there's enough actual
00:20:28
pressure to to create
00:20:30
any kind of change with Netanyahu's
00:20:32
government.
00:20:33
I can't tell you I'm optimistic.
00:20:34
Netanyahu is a master
00:20:36
manipulator.
00:20:37
He's always got the next spin in the
00:20:39
press. He's always got another
00:20:41
explanation about why his failures
00:20:42
aren't really his failures.
00:20:44
They're somebody else's fault.
00:20:46
He's you know, he's always got a new
00:20:48
a new angle to present things, to
00:20:50
put himself in good light.
00:20:51
And unfortunately and very, very
00:20:53
sadly, many of my compatriots fall
00:20:55
for that kind of logic.
00:20:56
Not everybody.
00:20:57
There's people out protesting still.
00:20:59
But I don't know whether we're a
00:21:00
majority and certainly not
00:21:03
among the people of his base, the
00:21:05
ultra-Orthodox, the the settlers,
00:21:07
the people who are his his
00:21:09
guaranteed base.
00:21:10
They certainly aren't
00:21:12
willing to be critical of him and
00:21:14
his decisions.
00:21:15
It's really interesting speaking to
00:21:17
you because of your wealth of
00:21:18
activism in the country
00:21:21
and also what you're seeking to do
00:21:23
from a compassion worldview.
00:21:23
And I just want to return that where
00:21:24
we began the conversation, how
00:21:26
you've raised your children, how you
00:21:28
raised you. I the compassion
00:21:30
that you try to instill
00:21:32
and the understanding from both
00:21:33
sides. One question I do want to
00:21:35
ask, which I think is worth
00:21:36
clarifying about, about Yanez,
00:21:38
and I'm sort of anticipating how
00:21:40
people will view the interview.
00:21:41
And the question they might have is,
00:21:44
as the son of an activist,
00:21:46
a peace activist, he was serving
00:21:48
in the civilian
00:21:50
forces in
00:21:52
the Army when he was killed.
00:21:54
Is that correct?
00:21:54
And how did you reconcile
00:21:57
that with the type of activism you
00:21:58
raised him with?
00:22:01
I think that's something that's very
00:22:02
hard for people who aren't living in
00:22:03
Israel to understand how people
00:22:06
serve in the army.
00:22:07
I know that sometimes can be a big
00:22:08
issue for my Palestinian friends and
00:22:10
neighbors as well.
00:22:12
First of all, on a technical level,
00:22:14
military service is compulsory for
00:22:15
men and women.
00:22:16
I also served in the army.
00:22:17
Every Israeli at age 18 is expected
00:22:19
to serve.
00:22:21
And not only is it compulsory,
00:22:23
as Israelis, we do live with a sense
00:22:25
of threat. It's not a made up
00:22:26
threat. I spent a lot of time in the
00:22:28
United States as a child.
00:22:29
If you're living in the United
00:22:30
States, you don't feel threatened by
00:22:32
your neighbors, by Mexico and
00:22:33
Canada.
00:22:35
In Israel, you have neighbors
00:22:37
surrounding you on all sides who
00:22:39
have many times tried to wipe your
00:22:41
country off the map.
00:22:42
And so there's a sense that you need
00:22:44
to have a way to protect yourself,
00:22:46
otherwise you simply won't be alive
00:22:48
in the future.
00:22:50
I'm the grandchild of Holocaust
00:22:51
survivors, and I heard from
00:22:53
my grandparents on a daily basis
00:22:55
that during the Holocaust no one
00:22:57
came to save them and that it's so
00:22:59
important that Israel exist and
00:23:00
that Israel have an army so we can
00:23:02
protect ourselves and the next
00:23:03
Holocaust won't happen.
00:23:05
And most Israelis that I know feel
00:23:07
that their service is protecting
00:23:10
them, that their lives
00:23:13
as far as the eye is concerned,
00:23:16
he definitely felt that way.
00:23:17
And I can tell you that on October
00:23:19
7th, he wasn't sitting
00:23:21
in the West Bank.
00:23:22
He wasn't protecting a settlement.
00:23:24
He was sitting in Israel proper.
00:23:26
He was in a training base.
00:23:28
His job was he was a search and
00:23:29
rescue soldier.
00:23:30
So his actual job was to help
00:23:32
save civilians in times of crisis,
00:23:35
like collapsed buildings,
00:23:36
earthquakes. That was his his
00:23:37
training.
00:23:38
And he was an officer that trained
00:23:40
incoming recruits in that work.
00:23:43
But on October 7th, Hamas
00:23:45
militants crossed the border and
00:23:46
they started mowing down civilians
00:23:49
all around them indiscriminately.
00:23:51
You know, I was at the base
00:23:52
with his trainees.
00:23:53
He and the other officers made the
00:23:55
decision to send the trainees back
00:23:57
into safety, and they ran to the
00:23:59
front lines and took over all the
00:24:00
guard posts around the base.
00:24:02
And the first post that you and I
00:24:04
arrived at was facing the beach
00:24:06
and he encountered 20 civilians
00:24:08
who'd been having a party on the
00:24:09
beach on that that night into
00:24:11
the morning.
00:24:13
And Hamas militants landed on the
00:24:14
beach and in boats and started
00:24:16
mowing down civilians, party goers
00:24:18
on the beach. And the first thing he
00:24:20
did was take those those
00:24:22
party goers into the base and
00:24:23
protect them. They were sure they
00:24:25
were going to die. Some of them
00:24:26
wrote road posts and Instagram about
00:24:28
it afterwards, and they said, you
00:24:29
and I came and you told them you're
00:24:31
going to be okay. I'm going to
00:24:32
protect you know, it's going to
00:24:34
hurt you here.
00:24:34
And they spoke about
00:24:36
the feeling of relief that they
00:24:37
experienced.
00:24:40
And I think and not only that,
00:24:42
and I later went to another another
00:24:44
post where he fought up Hamas
00:24:45
militants who were trying to enter
00:24:47
the base. And the fact that he was
00:24:49
able to hold them back protected
00:24:51
the two civilian communities
00:24:52
directly behind his base to kibbutz.
00:24:55
And we saw what happened in other
00:24:56
kibbutz around Gaza where
00:24:58
they didn't have that protection.
00:25:00
Civilians were slaughtered in those
00:25:02
in those communities.
00:25:04
So for you, night, that's
00:25:06
what his service was.
00:25:07
It was keeping his compatriots
00:25:09
safe. It was making sure that
00:25:12
the terrorists who came into his
00:25:13
country and
00:25:16
plowed down innocent civilians
00:25:18
indiscriminately face to face.
00:25:20
They saw who they were shooting and
00:25:21
they made the choice to shoot
00:25:23
innocent civilians, that he was
00:25:24
there to protect them.
00:25:25
And I think that's how he saw his
00:25:27
service.
00:25:29
And that's the kind of service that
00:25:30
that he believed in that we all
00:25:32
believe in. And I don't I think it
00:25:33
would be naive to think that Israel
00:25:35
doesn't need an army because there
00:25:36
are very radical elements
00:25:38
in our neighborhood, let's say, And
00:25:40
we do need to have the ability
00:25:42
to protect ourselves.
00:25:43
That doesn't mean that everything
00:25:44
that the army does is
00:25:47
is acceptable to us.
00:25:49
I think it's most important to
00:25:51
remember that the army is an input.
00:25:53
Is it?
00:25:54
It doesn't determine policy.
00:25:55
The policy is determined by the
00:25:56
government. The army implements the
00:25:58
policy that's that's decided by the
00:26:00
government. And unfortunately, the
00:26:01
current government is creating
00:26:03
policies that we really disagree
00:26:05
with. And the army is only the
00:26:07
implementing body.
00:26:08
It's not the source of the problem.
00:26:10
And outside of his service,
00:26:11
how will you remember your.
00:26:16
So you and I, first of all, he
00:26:18
would have been very
00:26:20
unhappy about me giving this
00:26:21
interview. And I always start by
00:26:23
apologizing to him because he was a
00:26:25
very private person.
00:26:26
He didn't like to talk about
00:26:27
himself. He didn't like to.
00:26:30
To put himself in the front.
00:26:32
He was very interested in other
00:26:34
people. And I think
00:26:35
what the way I like to remember him
00:26:37
is this spending a lot of time
00:26:39
listening to other people.
00:26:41
As a commander, he would spend his
00:26:42
evenings going from post to post and
00:26:44
just getting to know his soldiers,
00:26:46
asking them about their their homes,
00:26:48
their families, their interests.
00:26:50
And he invested so much time doing
00:26:52
that that he really didn't sleep.
00:26:53
He told us that sleeping was
00:26:55
psychological, was unnecessary.
00:26:58
And, of course, that's ridiculous
00:26:59
because he was a biological being.
00:27:01
And the way he managed with his lack
00:27:03
of sleep was drinking a lot of
00:27:05
coffee.
00:27:06
And when I speak to groups
00:27:08
about you and I, I always
00:27:10
use the coffee as something very
00:27:12
symbolic about him.
00:27:13
And I could also invite your
00:27:14
listeners to to, to use
00:27:16
his, his legacy with regards to
00:27:18
coffee, because I know that coffee
00:27:20
is such a strong element of cultures
00:27:21
throughout the Middle East.
00:27:23
When you drink coffee with somebody,
00:27:26
you first of all, you it's a way to
00:27:28
you offer to drink coffee with
00:27:29
somebody. It's a way to connect with
00:27:31
them.
00:27:32
And, you know, I was interested
00:27:34
in those interpersonal connections
00:27:36
and human connections
00:27:38
that the Arabic coffee
00:27:40
is is dark,
00:27:42
It's bitter.
00:27:43
It has sludge on the bottom.
00:27:45
And when you have a real
00:27:46
conversation with another human
00:27:48
being, it's not all polite,
00:27:50
it's not all sweet.
00:27:50
The real conversations can be
00:27:52
bitter. They can be difficult.
00:27:54
They can be dark.
00:27:55
And I wasn't afraid to have those
00:27:57
conversations with other people and
00:27:58
to listen to people he didn't agree
00:28:00
with.
00:28:02
And so I remember him by
00:28:04
inviting people who are different
00:28:05
than me to sit down and have a cup
00:28:08
of Arabic Turkish coffee
00:28:10
and just listen to them
00:28:12
and listen to their pain, listen to
00:28:14
where they're coming from to try and
00:28:15
understand them and
00:28:17
to drink the coffee together, to be
00:28:19
with them in their bitterness, in
00:28:21
their darkness, and recognize
00:28:22
that every human being has those
00:28:24
sides. And to look together
00:28:26
for a way to find light within that
00:28:28
darkness. To me, that's his legacy.
00:28:30
Alana Cumming, thank you very
00:28:32
much for making time for us on this
00:28:34
day.
00:28:36
Thank you.
00:28:42
I'm joined now by the former deputy
00:28:44
prime minister of Israel and
00:28:45
minister of intelligence and atomic
00:28:47
energy, Dan Meridor.
00:28:49
Sir, thank you for making time.
00:28:51
How have you been marking today?
00:28:55
Well, I'm here in Jerusalem and
00:28:57
I'm listening to your questions.
00:29:00
I have been marking today
00:29:02
is the first year
00:29:05
for this horrible attack
00:29:07
on October 7th.
00:29:09
Television in Israel shows the
00:29:11
stories of people,
00:29:13
women, children who were
00:29:15
kidnaped were murdered, who were
00:29:17
raped, and the recordings
00:29:19
on the telephone when they're
00:29:21
calling, there's no reply
00:29:23
and memorable
00:29:25
moment.
00:29:27
Well, they might have changed our
00:29:28
life.
00:29:31
What's it like in Jerusalem
00:29:33
today? How safe are you feeling?
00:29:36
Well, Jerusalem goes on.
00:29:38
Life is normal.
00:29:40
Accept the fact that we still
00:29:41
have a war on.
00:29:43
And the.
00:29:45
It's I don't want to get used
00:29:47
to the war situation
00:29:49
as if it's normal.
00:29:50
We would need to end this story
00:29:52
as soon as possible, unfortunately.
00:29:55
Holy year. It's not the
00:29:56
end.
00:29:57
I hope it's the beginning of the
00:29:59
end. I don't see that
00:30:01
coming.
00:30:02
Does it? Yeah, I was going to ask
00:30:04
that. Does it feel like the
00:30:05
beginning of the end?
00:30:06
Because a year ago,
00:30:08
if you were to say yes or no.
00:30:10
It's not clear to me how
00:30:14
this is going to end.
00:30:15
It's.
00:30:17
The Iranian attack on Israel, which
00:30:19
was really unprecedented
00:30:22
in the.
00:30:23
With no reason.
00:30:24
We haven't attacked them.
00:30:25
They have attacked us twice.
00:30:27
The first time we responded in a
00:30:30
more symbolic way, not
00:30:32
in full scale.
00:30:34
Thinking that this would
00:30:35
indicate to them, don't
00:30:37
do it again.
00:30:39
Then they did it again.
00:30:40
The launching 181
00:30:42
ballistic missiles.
00:30:44
I don't think ever in history there
00:30:45
was such an attack by a country that
00:30:47
we never attacked.
00:30:49
They have supported Hezbollah,
00:30:52
who are against our
00:30:54
organization that we haven't
00:30:55
attacked. They joined they after
00:30:57
the Hamas attack on us.
00:30:58
And since then, we have
00:31:00
a multi-front
00:31:03
conflict.
00:31:04
Bloody and
00:31:07
it's not good.
00:31:08
All needs to be
00:31:10
done to put an end to it as soon as
00:31:11
possible.
00:31:13
Before we get to talking about how
00:31:14
that happens.
00:31:15
Let's talk about so let's clarify
00:31:17
what you mean when you say that Iran
00:31:20
fired the ballistic missiles
00:31:22
at Israel with no reason
00:31:24
and had never been attacked, because
00:31:26
as you as you points out, Israel
00:31:27
hadn't launched an attack on Iran.
00:31:29
But Iran obviously saying they were
00:31:31
doing so in support of Hezbollah,
00:31:33
who they back in Lebanon and
00:31:35
understood Hezbollah have been
00:31:36
firing missiles over the border into
00:31:38
Israel.
00:31:39
This is the the cyclical
00:31:41
situation we find ourselves in.
00:31:43
But in terms of Iran
00:31:45
launching the attack, was it not in
00:31:47
response for Israel's
00:31:49
actions against Hezbollah
00:31:51
in the last fortnight?
00:31:54
Well, it's it's a strange
00:31:56
situation we have that there
00:31:58
are there in Texas.
00:32:00
We have nothing to do with
00:32:01
Hezbollah. They attacked us
00:32:03
in support of Hamas.
00:32:04
So it's all developed.
00:32:06
This cyclical thing did
00:32:08
not start with us, Is that Hamas
00:32:10
attacking us?
00:32:11
And then we responded after this
00:32:13
horrendous attack that killed over
00:32:15
a thousand people and kidnaped
00:32:16
people and raped and maimed
00:32:18
and walked out.
00:32:19
After that, we responded.
00:32:20
And then the some the Hezbollah
00:32:22
joined in with no
00:32:24
excuse, but they want to help the
00:32:26
Hamas organization and
00:32:29
then Iran helps Hezbollah.
00:32:30
That's a unique
00:32:32
story. You see there is
00:32:34
an asymmetry here.
00:32:35
I don't want to go into details, but
00:32:37
look at it with the PLO.
00:32:39
We had negotiations with agreements.
00:32:41
Oslo.
00:32:42
We tried to bring about full peace.
00:32:44
We have succeeded with it partly
00:32:46
with Egypt, too. Had we have peace
00:32:48
with Jordan, have peace with the
00:32:50
Abraham Accords, the Gulf states,
00:32:52
South African, he comes
00:32:54
a new axis of three countries
00:32:56
or three organizations Iran,
00:32:59
Hezbollah and Hamas.
00:33:00
First of all, they don't speak
00:33:02
politics. They have a
00:33:04
religious justification.
00:33:06
It's against religion that there
00:33:07
would be a Jewish state.
00:33:09
Second, they say that Israel should
00:33:10
not exist.
00:33:12
We never said about Iran that Iran
00:33:13
shouldn't exist. Iran is a welcome
00:33:16
member of the international
00:33:17
community. They don't need us for
00:33:18
this.
00:33:19
But they say that we shouldn't
00:33:21
exist.
00:33:21
They openly say so does
00:33:23
Hezbollah and so does Hamas.
00:33:25
Not the question of borders or
00:33:27
refugees or Palestine.
00:33:28
New Jerusalem, no, is just not
00:33:30
exist.
00:33:31
This is a unique
00:33:33
situation in the world.
00:33:34
I don't know of any other country
00:33:36
against which there is such a
00:33:38
campaign, and not
00:33:40
only in rhetoric but
00:33:42
in fire.
00:33:44
And we have to defend ourselves
00:33:46
against multiple fronts
00:33:49
from Iran itself,
00:33:51
from the Shiite groups in Syria
00:33:53
that Iran conducts, from the
00:33:55
Shiite groups in Iraq, that Iran
00:33:57
conducts from Hezbollah,
00:33:59
that Iran armed from
00:34:01
Hamas, that Iran arms from Islamic
00:34:03
Jihad and from the Houthis in Yemen.
00:34:05
This is a unique theater.
00:34:08
And we find ourselves in the midst
00:34:09
of all of that and defend ourselves
00:34:12
and e to its back, not
00:34:14
because we like war, but we like to
00:34:15
live. You know.
00:34:17
What about comments today from
00:34:19
Jordan's foreign minister who was
00:34:21
meeting the caretaker prime minister
00:34:23
in Lebanon, in Beirut, saying
00:34:25
that the actions of Israel risks
00:34:27
tipping the wider region of the
00:34:28
Middle East into an abyss.
00:34:30
What do you say to that?
00:34:33
I haven't heard him.
00:34:35
But I will say on that on the issue,
00:34:38
we haven't done it.
00:34:38
We haven't started it.
00:34:40
Are we supposed to be a
00:34:42
sitting duck and let them all
00:34:43
onshore does do nothing because the
00:34:45
Middle East may go up in flames.
00:34:47
It should go up in flames.
00:34:49
The other countries who are siding
00:34:51
with us, in fact, including the king
00:34:53
of Jordan and others, are not happy
00:34:55
with the Iranian
00:34:57
initiative here.
00:34:58
The Iranian domination and the
00:34:59
Iranians generally, and the Iranian
00:35:01
aggressive attack on
00:35:03
a country that did nothing against
00:35:05
them.
00:35:06
This is unprecedented.
00:35:07
And I don't see why we need to
00:35:09
to be the side that
00:35:11
does. What should we do?
00:35:13
What is it that we should do to stop
00:35:14
it? Not clear to me.
00:35:16
Does it in that sense
00:35:19
with the position that Jordan's
00:35:20
foreign minister is taking there
00:35:22
with the countries that
00:35:24
surround you there in the Middle
00:35:25
East? Do you feel like you
00:35:27
don't have any friends there with
00:35:29
regards to Israel and that your
00:35:30
friends are actually much further
00:35:32
away thinking us?
00:35:34
No, I don't think so.
00:35:36
I believe that in the last, say,
00:35:38
40 or 50 years,
00:35:40
there was a very positive
00:35:42
trend of Arab countries,
00:35:44
one after the other, coming to terms
00:35:46
with us and signing a peace treaty
00:35:48
with us.
00:35:49
It all started in 1977
00:35:51
with President Sadat of Egypt
00:35:53
and Prime Minister Begin of Israel.
00:35:55
And the biggest, most powerful Arab
00:35:57
country was in
00:35:58
peace with us. Since then, not one
00:36:00
Israeli or Egyptian was killed
00:36:02
or any war in 50 years almost.
00:36:04
It's it's a big thing.
00:36:05
Then there was
00:36:07
an attempt with Oslo
00:36:09
that didn't succeed very well but
00:36:11
was in that direction.
00:36:12
Then there was Jordan, Israel
00:36:14
signing a peace treaty in 1994
00:36:16
between Prime Minister Rabin and
00:36:18
King Hussein, both
00:36:20
of them.
00:36:21
And then there was the Abraham
00:36:23
Accords about two, three years ago.
00:36:26
And there was talk about Saudis and
00:36:27
various other joining in.
00:36:29
There was a very positive trend of
00:36:30
having ideals of love
00:36:32
and friendship in terms of personal
00:36:34
relationship.
00:36:35
But politically, there was a process
00:36:37
of of accepting all of us as a
00:36:39
reality and trying to find
00:36:40
common interests and the economy and
00:36:43
trade and tourism and things
00:36:44
are going well. There was another
00:36:46
axis, however, that this
00:36:48
did the opposite.
00:36:49
They said you won't be part of the
00:36:51
Middle East.
00:36:52
We will continue the struggle until
00:36:54
you're out of the Middle East.
00:36:55
And Iran does that.
00:36:56
Speaking again in God's name.
00:36:58
They know what he wants and they act
00:37:00
for him.
00:37:01
So there's no compromise, is God's
00:37:02
word. And Hezbollah the same.
00:37:04
And Hamas the same Islamic
00:37:06
Jihad.
00:37:07
This is a dangerous situation
00:37:10
that developed not only for Israel,
00:37:12
you know, that they're on the
00:37:14
same list of Hezbollah.
00:37:16
There are many Arab countries who
00:37:19
are not happy with the Iranian
00:37:20
behavior and not
00:37:22
less than we are not happy.
00:37:24
Several of the countries you
00:37:25
mentioned there when you were
00:37:26
talking about efforts to
00:37:28
normalize relations or indeed
00:37:30
support Israel in the past
00:37:32
or to have diplomatic processes for
00:37:34
a peace solution.
00:37:36
Several of them have come out in
00:37:38
recent weeks and said they would no
00:37:39
longer support Israel if a state
00:37:41
of Palestine was not
00:37:43
established.
00:37:46
What do you make of that?
00:37:47
Do you think we're going to move to
00:37:48
a position where there could be a
00:37:50
two state solution?
00:37:52
Let me make one thing clear.
00:37:54
I'm not the government now.
00:37:56
I'm in fact, in opposition to the
00:37:57
government. I'm out of office for
00:37:59
what I say is my position, not
00:38:01
the government's position.
00:38:02
I think there should be a two state
00:38:04
solution.
00:38:05
I don't see any other reasonable way
00:38:07
to end the conflict.
00:38:08
It's hard for us
00:38:10
and possibly for the other side.
00:38:12
We think the whole land is ours.
00:38:14
They think the whole land is theirs
00:38:15
and there is a need, there must
00:38:17
to divide between the two peoples.
00:38:20
We were close to it in several
00:38:21
occasions.
00:38:22
In the year 2000, I was
00:38:24
at Camp David with Prime Minister
00:38:26
Barak, President Clinton and Yasser
00:38:28
Arafat, the chairman of the
00:38:29
Palestinian organization.
00:38:31
And I thought we would be there.
00:38:32
And Arafat said no one came to put a
00:38:34
finger down If I said, why do
00:38:36
not say yes to this Palestinian
00:38:38
state was offered even share
00:38:40
in Jerusalem and those other things
00:38:42
could be resolved.
00:38:43
And he rejected them.
00:38:45
Then later we tried again with Prime
00:38:47
Minister Olmert and they
00:38:49
and Mahmoud Abbas, Abu Mazen,
00:38:51
in 2008.
00:38:52
And he was offered the same and
00:38:54
maybe even more. And the there
00:38:56
was no positive response from the
00:38:57
other side.
00:38:58
I still think in spite of that,
00:39:00
that we it's our interest to end
00:39:02
this conflict with a two state
00:39:04
solution.
00:39:05
It may not be easy the way questions
00:39:07
that are very tough like Jerusalem
00:39:09
like issue of of the
00:39:11
exact border.
00:39:12
But it needs to be done
00:39:14
if there is leadership on both
00:39:15
sides. One other element here,
00:39:18
even if the Israeli government of
00:39:19
today would agree to what they say
00:39:21
and they do not.
00:39:23
Is there a partner who speaks for
00:39:24
the Palestinians, Hamas or the PLO?
00:39:27
If you speak, the PLO, Hamas will
00:39:28
not talk to you.
00:39:29
You speak with Hamas, delegitimizing
00:39:31
the PLO.
00:39:32
Then what do you do?
00:39:33
So even if and I'm not saying there
00:39:35
is a potential for this now,
00:39:38
there's a big problem on the
00:39:39
Palestinian side when the fanatic
00:39:41
religion religious terror
00:39:43
group called Hamas and
00:39:45
took power and the
00:39:47
kills PLO people in Gaza kick
00:39:49
them away, get control over
00:39:51
Gaza, and they are not part, as they
00:39:53
say, they will never talk with
00:39:54
Israel because these are does not
00:39:55
exist. The PLO didn't say
00:39:57
I thought we could come to an
00:39:58
agreement, didn't work, so we
00:40:00
need to come back to it.
00:40:02
And I'm not in the government.
00:40:03
So she asked me, this is my personal
00:40:06
position. Yes.
00:40:08
I mean. Well, outsiders and
00:40:10
critics, when you when you talk
00:40:11
about the situation and how you can
00:40:12
negotiate with the
00:40:14
Palestinian side, given what you
00:40:16
just described between Hamas and the
00:40:17
PLO, an issue
00:40:19
that is you outsiders
00:40:21
and critics of Israel's current
00:40:22
strategy are saying that Israel
00:40:24
is trying to bomb its
00:40:26
opponents into
00:40:28
some sort of solution or around
00:40:30
the negotiating table.
00:40:31
I mean, you're very much clear
00:40:33
you're not part of the current
00:40:34
governments and that you're part of
00:40:36
an opposition force at the moment.
00:40:37
But do you think the government has
00:40:39
pursued the right strategy with this
00:40:41
aggressive military strategy in both
00:40:43
Gaza and now in Lebanon as well?
00:40:46
Well, first of all, it wasn't
00:40:48
aggressive in the sense that it was
00:40:49
a reaction. It was not initiated by
00:40:51
us.
00:40:52
I can ask, what what do you think
00:40:54
the any country
00:40:56
you think of you might come from
00:40:58
Britain would do if
00:41:00
all of a sudden another country or a
00:41:02
neighbor attacks it, rapes,
00:41:05
kills, maims and kidnaps people
00:41:07
and say, that's it, don't do
00:41:08
a thing one day, strike back
00:41:11
when they do try to to hit
00:41:13
the guy who did it when they tried
00:41:15
to to teach a lesson.
00:41:17
I don't speak of revenge just to to
00:41:19
prevent things happening like this
00:41:20
in the future.
00:41:21
Every normal country, not
00:41:23
aggressive, but not
00:41:26
arrogant, would have to
00:41:27
defend its citizens against such an
00:41:29
unprovoked attack.
00:41:30
That barbarism that we
00:41:32
have witnessed and the
00:41:35
people who were killed and kidnaped.
00:41:37
You didn't hear the stories I heard
00:41:38
today again and again.
00:41:39
I don't forget these days
00:41:41
with the the
00:41:43
calls for help, but there was nobody
00:41:45
coming to help because, yes, they
00:41:47
got a by surprise and
00:41:49
they killed people, the young people
00:41:50
dancing in a dance party
00:41:53
and people taking from their beds
00:41:54
and people kidnaped.
00:41:56
People rape.
00:41:57
It's an awful attack.
00:41:59
Barbarism comes back to the 21st
00:42:01
century. What are we supposed to do?
00:42:03
Say, keep the people there?
00:42:05
We don't want them because this will
00:42:07
be in your hands and you can go on
00:42:08
doing it for centuries to strike
00:42:10
back. And that means Bilal, with no
00:42:12
reason, attacked us after that
00:42:14
to join in to help the Hamas.
00:42:17
So are we supposed to think
00:42:19
this? We think, unfortunately, in
00:42:20
those exchange
00:42:23
of fire, some innocent
00:42:25
people are hit. This is a very
00:42:27
tragic result of wars
00:42:29
and we should do it.
00:42:30
And I think we do everything we can.
00:42:31
I'm not in the business, though, to
00:42:33
avoid unintended consequences,
00:42:35
civilian casualties.
00:42:37
But when when the enemy or
00:42:39
the other side hides within civilian
00:42:41
population, not in camps of army,
00:42:43
when they're hiding within the city
00:42:45
or down in the basement
00:42:48
of the houses in Beirut or in
00:42:50
the Lebanese
00:42:52
other cities, what are we supposed
00:42:54
to do? Do they have immunity?
00:42:57
So we try to to
00:42:59
warn the civilians,
00:43:01
leave. Don't stay there because we
00:43:02
don't want to hurt you.
00:43:03
But yes, unfortunately, people are
00:43:04
hurt. And this I, I
00:43:06
not only am not happy, I am sorry
00:43:08
for everybody who is hurt is not
00:43:09
part of the game, but they
00:43:11
are attacking us from there.
00:43:13
So what are we supposed to do?
00:43:16
Indeed, it's a lot
00:43:18
of.
00:43:19
Even Israel's opponents
00:43:21
recognize Israel's right to defend
00:43:22
itself after the events of October
00:43:24
7th. And elsewhere in the show,
00:43:25
we're speaking to the families
00:43:27
of people who were killed in
00:43:29
terrible circumstances in Israel
00:43:31
on October 7th and people whose
00:43:33
family members are still being held
00:43:34
hostage as well.
00:43:36
However, it's hard to ignore
00:43:39
criticism that stems not only from
00:43:41
members of the public worldwide, but
00:43:42
also from top leaders as well.
00:43:44
Thinking of France's
00:43:46
Emmanuel Macron over the weekend,
00:43:48
saying that he wants to limit
00:43:50
arms sales to Israel and then
00:43:52
having a very frank because it was
00:43:53
called discussion with Netanyahu.
00:43:54
And then today, Turkey's President
00:43:56
Erdogan vowing Israel will pay
00:43:58
a price for, quote, the genocide
00:44:00
in Gaza.
00:44:01
So it's not just sort of analysts,
00:44:02
observers, members of the public.
00:44:04
It's it's leaders of major countries
00:44:06
as well. So how do you contend
00:44:08
with that?
00:44:10
Well, you know, I
00:44:12
think of the Turkish
00:44:15
leader, Mr. Erdogan,
00:44:17
who knows something of genocide
00:44:18
after us, the Armenians, they will
00:44:20
tell you what genocide means in
00:44:22
Turkish terms.
00:44:23
Speak of us committing genocide
00:44:25
is it's a shame
00:44:27
we don't want to kill anybody who is
00:44:29
not part of that war against us.
00:44:32
We have been attacked.
00:44:33
We have attacked people.
00:44:34
We have offered them Palestinian
00:44:36
statehood.
00:44:36
We left Gaza altogether in 2005
00:44:39
without anything in return, said
00:44:40
take the land, make it your own
00:44:42
Palestinian state for the first time
00:44:44
in history.
00:44:45
The result was that the Hamas took
00:44:46
over from the PLO, killed PLO people
00:44:48
and made it a launching pad of
00:44:50
rockets and terror against us.
00:44:53
So where is genocide?
00:44:54
It's shameful to even speak of it
00:44:56
to the Jewish people who
00:44:58
had the worst genocide ever in
00:44:59
history.
00:45:00
Do we commit suicide?
00:45:01
Yes. It's very, very tough
00:45:03
that people who are innocent people
00:45:05
are sometimes hurt in times of war.
00:45:08
I think the same thing would happen
00:45:10
in the Second World War in Germany
00:45:11
and in some people with the Nazi
00:45:13
regime. It happens.
00:45:14
War is dead. I do not like it.
00:45:15
I, I don't want anybody
00:45:17
to get killed if he's not part of
00:45:19
the game. But what do you do when
00:45:20
the fight is on the battlefield in
00:45:22
cities from cities and when
00:45:24
they hide the weapons?
00:45:25
And then there was a control system
00:45:27
in the cities, in the houses.
00:45:28
So, yeah, that's not a genocide is
00:45:30
simply is not true.
00:45:32
And we need to end the story
00:45:34
as soon as possible and teach a
00:45:36
lesson to those who think they can
00:45:38
do these things and and be impugned.
00:45:40
This is not the case.
00:45:43
The last thing we want to see is war
00:45:44
we were living with.
00:45:46
Afterward, we offered compromises
00:45:49
less. So this government after
00:45:51
Clinton, there was a different
00:45:52
approach. But the alien turning out
00:45:54
with 12 years ago offered the
00:45:56
Palestinian state in
00:45:58
public.
00:45:59
And then I said that Rabin and Paris
00:46:01
and Olmert and and Barak
00:46:03
all offered it and there was no
00:46:05
response.
00:46:06
But this is nothing to do with
00:46:07
Hamas. Hamas doesn't want a two
00:46:09
state solution.
00:46:10
They want one state from the river
00:46:12
to the sea. All Palestine.
00:46:13
No Israel.
00:46:15
But what are we supposed to say?
00:46:16
Okay. Take us.
00:46:19
Listen, we appreciate you sharing
00:46:21
your thoughts with us today.
00:46:22
Make time for us. Former deputy
00:46:24
prime minister of Israel and former
00:46:25
minister of intelligence and atomic
00:46:26
energy, Dan Meridor.
00:46:29
Thank you very much.
00:46:29
Good to have.
00:46:35
In Gaza, the humanitarian toll
00:46:37
continues to grow as the Israeli
00:46:39
military, after ordering civilians
00:46:41
to urgently evacuate northern Gaza's
00:46:43
densely populated Jabalya refugee
00:46:45
camp, unleashed a heavy bombardment,
00:46:48
resulting in the deaths of 17
00:46:49
people, including at least
00:46:51
nine children, since
00:46:53
the conflict reignited in October
00:46:55
2023. The scale of destruction
00:46:57
has been staggering.
00:46:59
With Israel's strikes on Gaza
00:47:01
claiming the lives of at least
00:47:02
41,909
00:47:04
people and leaving 97,303
00:47:08
wounded.
00:47:09
But their families declined.
00:47:10
What are we left with?
00:47:12
Let them kill us once and for all
00:47:14
with chemicals and get rid of us.
00:47:16
Why should we stay alive when
00:47:18
a confined medicine or a blanket
00:47:20
for the tent and a confined
00:47:22
medicine?
00:47:22
For myself.
00:47:23
I'm chronically ill.
00:47:25
I'm not going.
00:47:25
To. I mean.
00:47:27
We didn't expect the war to last
00:47:28
a year.
00:47:29
And for all of this to happen
00:47:31
today, it's a year since the war
00:47:33
started and we were displaced
00:47:35
from Khan Yunis, then Rafah,
00:47:37
then dead.
00:47:38
We are demanding a solution.
00:47:40
This is not a war.
00:47:41
It's a business.
00:47:42
We are fighting for Jerusalem today.
00:47:45
We are fighting to return to Gaza
00:47:46
City. And we are asking all the Arab
00:47:48
countries to support us.
00:47:50
We miss our homes and our loved
00:47:52
ones.
00:47:52
Nobody cares about us.
00:47:55
For more, I'm joined by the
00:47:57
Palestinian ambassador to Denmark
00:47:59
and former ambassador for the
00:48:00
Palestinian mission in the United
00:48:01
Kingdom, Manuel Hazim.
00:48:03
Sir, thanks for making time.
00:48:05
And you'll appreciate with speaking
00:48:07
to several Israeli voices
00:48:09
in the show as well.
00:48:10
But I want to ask you the same
00:48:11
question I've asked a lot of them,
00:48:13
which is what does the 7th of
00:48:15
October mean to you?
00:48:18
The 7th of October means
00:48:20
the perpetuation of occupation
00:48:22
and the destruction and the
00:48:24
decimation of an entire
00:48:26
nation, i.e.
00:48:27
the Palestinians starting
00:48:29
in Gaza, finishing in the
00:48:31
West Bank and East Jerusalem.
00:48:33
This has been the systematic policy
00:48:35
of far right wing governments
00:48:37
in Israel, headed by Netanyahu.
00:48:40
So for me, October 7th is
00:48:42
not the beginning of the conflict,
00:48:43
but we have to go back 70 years
00:48:46
in retrospect to talk
00:48:48
about this epistemic community
00:48:50
conflict that have been lingering
00:48:52
for so several decades
00:48:54
now.
00:48:55
And everybody is putting the onus
00:48:57
on October 7th as if that
00:48:59
this conflict started on October
00:49:01
7th. No, October 7th
00:49:03
is a situation of
00:49:05
an ongoing systematic policy
00:49:06
of Israelis who want to
00:49:08
get rid of the demography
00:49:11
and get the geography.
00:49:12
What do you do with this?
00:49:13
Today in Gaza is
00:49:15
another type of
00:49:17
reoccupation of Gaza,
00:49:19
let alone the expansion
00:49:21
of settlements.
00:49:22
And the settlers attack
00:49:24
like a gun. The whole mentality
00:49:26
on the Palestinians in the West Bank
00:49:28
is the conclusion of a
00:49:30
synchronization of the West Bank,
00:49:32
Gaza and East Jerusalem
00:49:34
as an occupied
00:49:36
basically territory that
00:49:38
will be ceded to greater is.
00:49:41
This is how I look at October
00:49:43
7th.
00:49:44
Talk to us about what the situation
00:49:45
is like in Gaza right now.
00:49:48
The situation in Gaza has been
00:49:50
terrible. It's every day it's
00:49:52
being worse and worse and worse,
00:49:54
as if there is no meaning for the
00:49:56
lives of the Palestinians.
00:49:58
Israelis are killing, you know,
00:50:00
shoot to kill with the license
00:50:02
from the west, you know, just
00:50:04
pondering and looking at Israel the
00:50:06
way it has been, you
00:50:08
know, conducting its genocide,
00:50:10
its butchery against the
00:50:12
Palestinians with the help of
00:50:14
the United States and that of the
00:50:15
United Kingdom, basically
00:50:18
is a badge of honor to the
00:50:19
international community to see
00:50:21
how the innocent Palestinians
00:50:23
are being, you know,
00:50:25
slaughtered like animals
00:50:27
with nobody even raising a
00:50:29
finger to tell Israel,
00:50:31
stop this carnage, stop
00:50:33
this. You know what
00:50:35
you're doing now?
00:50:36
And that is extremely
00:50:39
bad because, you know, this
00:50:41
will not end that
00:50:43
by itself.
00:50:44
It has to be end by the
00:50:46
international community.
00:50:47
And it's a shame that people
00:50:49
are being killed under the rubric
00:50:51
of Israel is defending itself.
00:50:54
This is a shame.
00:50:55
And the people in the world
00:50:57
should be ashamed of themselves not
00:50:59
to intervene and to stop this
00:51:01
carnage.
00:51:02
Now, let's talk about the
00:51:03
international community that you say
00:51:05
that countries you've cited, the
00:51:07
US, the UK for supporting
00:51:08
Israel.
00:51:09
Other countries have come out in
00:51:12
recent weeks and said they will no
00:51:13
longer or they will seek to no
00:51:15
longer supply arms or limit arms
00:51:17
supplies. I'm thinking specifically
00:51:18
about France President Emmanuel
00:51:20
Macron. He then had what's called
00:51:22
a frank conversation with Benjamin
00:51:24
Netanyahu about those comments.
00:51:27
Do you welcome that move from
00:51:28
Macron?
00:51:31
Well, you know,
00:51:33
Macron became
00:51:36
proactive basically
00:51:39
when the
00:51:40
situation in southern Lebanon
00:51:43
started to escalate.
00:51:44
As you know, the patrons of,
00:51:47
of Lebanon are the French.
00:51:49
So we have seen the French
00:51:52
now being more actively
00:51:54
involved in the process because,
00:51:56
you know, all the weapons
00:51:59
that have been sent by America, by
00:52:01
Canada, by the US, by
00:52:02
the French, even by the Danish
00:52:05
and what have you, are simply is
00:52:07
basically to continue with this
00:52:09
bombardments of Gaza and
00:52:11
southern Lebanon.
00:52:12
And now when when Lebanon
00:52:14
is being you know, the tension is
00:52:16
being escalated so much now
00:52:18
to the point where it will hurt the
00:52:20
interests of the French
00:52:22
as as as patriots, you know,
00:52:24
in the area.
00:52:26
He came up with this statement
00:52:28
saying that we have to stop, you
00:52:29
know, sending officers there because
00:52:32
Israel is gone with impunity,
00:52:34
you know, by,
00:52:37
you know, committing these atrocious
00:52:38
crimes against the Palestinians.
00:52:40
So I'm not surprised from
00:52:42
such an action.
00:52:43
But we have to say how much
00:52:45
political weight this has on
00:52:47
Israel to stop basically
00:52:49
its bombardments of civilians,
00:52:51
whether in Lebanon or in Gaza.
00:52:53
Does it have any political
00:52:55
weight? Do you think it makes a
00:52:56
difference when you get statements,
00:52:58
at least like that?
00:53:01
Well, I actually I would tell
00:53:02
you, this is an embarrassment.
00:53:06
As long as the United States is
00:53:08
unequivocally unwavering
00:53:10
support supporting Israel
00:53:12
and there is no political weight
00:53:14
for European countries.
00:53:17
So do you think that
00:53:18
this was part of Israel's strategy
00:53:21
and I've heard this from various
00:53:22
analysts that with regard to what
00:53:24
they have embarked on in the second
00:53:26
front with Lebanon was timed
00:53:28
during this period of the US
00:53:30
election cycle where there isn't a
00:53:31
very active government at the
00:53:32
moment. Just want to ask you that.
00:53:35
Yeah. Well, let's let it let me tell
00:53:37
you this.
00:53:38
Now, the United States, Biden
00:53:39
is a lame duck.
00:53:40
There is elections coming up on
00:53:42
November 5th.
00:53:43
And, of course, the Israelis are
00:53:45
continuing with their with
00:53:47
their heinous crimes against the
00:53:49
Palestinians, let alone in southern
00:53:51
Lebanon.
00:53:52
And between now and November
00:53:54
5th, Netanyahu continues
00:53:56
basically to flatten Gaza,
00:53:59
to flatten southern Lebanon, and
00:54:01
to keep on creating
00:54:03
conducive conditions for the
00:54:04
settlers to take over, you
00:54:06
know, lands from the from
00:54:08
the Palestinians in the West Bank,
00:54:10
let alone to make life extremely
00:54:12
miserable for the residents
00:54:14
in Jerusalem.
00:54:15
And by buying time and trying
00:54:17
to conclude what he has
00:54:19
in mind, this strategy of
00:54:20
reoccupation of Gaza, the West
00:54:22
Bank and what have you.
00:54:24
He will guarantee that he will not
00:54:25
be indicted. Indicted.
00:54:27
He will be he will guarantee that he
00:54:29
will be the hero that delivered this
00:54:31
from October 7th.
00:54:32
He will be the hero that created
00:54:34
that, you know, zones of
00:54:37
security zones in Gaza and that
00:54:38
the West Bank and Jerusalem.
00:54:40
And then by the time if
00:54:42
the elections takes place,
00:54:44
it could basically if Trump
00:54:46
wins the elections, is a natural
00:54:49
ally for them.
00:54:50
If Kamala Harris wins
00:54:52
the elections, the United States
00:54:53
administration will stick to
00:54:55
its guns in helping Israel
00:54:57
against all odds in the Middle
00:54:59
East.
00:55:00
So you don't have much hope beyond
00:55:02
the US election for support
00:55:04
for your cause?
00:55:06
No, I don't see it.
00:55:08
I can't see it unless
00:55:10
there is a massive movement
00:55:12
around the world globally
00:55:15
for these governments who are
00:55:16
considered to be extreme right
00:55:19
things in Europe.
00:55:20
They should be changed.
00:55:21
A new mentality should come.
00:55:23
A new perception, New cognitions
00:55:25
should emerge in order to
00:55:27
change the preset
00:55:29
or the predetermined
00:55:32
perceptions of all these governments
00:55:34
that have been supporting Israel.
00:55:36
It is a long way back, politically
00:55:38
and diplomatically for us
00:55:39
Palestinians to achieve this.
00:55:41
It will take a long time, let
00:55:43
alone the Palestinians, are paying
00:55:45
the heavy price of casualties,
00:55:47
let alone those in in
00:55:49
Lebanon.
00:55:49
And until the dust
00:55:51
settles, we are going to see
00:55:53
dramatic changes happening
00:55:55
in the geography of the Middle East.
00:55:58
We certainly seem to be seeing
00:56:00
that. And in terms of the
00:56:02
international support you're getting
00:56:04
or you feel like you're lacking.
00:56:06
But there was one other comment
00:56:07
at least today
00:56:10
that came out very strongly in
00:56:11
support of Palestinian
00:56:13
people. Turkey's President Recep
00:56:15
Tayyip Erdogan, vowing
00:56:17
that Israel would pay a price for,
00:56:19
quote, the genocide in Gaza.
00:56:21
How did you receive those comments?
00:56:25
Well, actually,
00:56:28
we received all kinds of good
00:56:29
comments, but we are interested in
00:56:31
actions if those are
00:56:33
not concretized in actions.
00:56:35
I mean, this is a charade.
00:56:37
Let them talk.
00:56:38
It doesn't mean anything to us.
00:56:40
What we need to see is
00:56:42
an actual position.
00:56:44
First of all, let our design.
00:56:47
Kick the Israeli ambassador from
00:56:49
Turkey. Stop the billions
00:56:51
of dollars of trade exchange between
00:56:53
Turkey and that of
00:56:56
Israel.
00:56:57
We can see action now.
00:56:59
Take.
00:57:00
Take Israel to the International
00:57:01
Court of Justice.
00:57:03
Come up with a statement that these
00:57:05
are, you know,
00:57:08
human rights violators
00:57:10
and they are committing a crime
00:57:12
against humanity.
00:57:13
We need to see action.
00:57:15
Statements like that are just
00:57:17
hollow statements.
00:57:19
If they're not backed up by a
00:57:21
concrete plan, where
00:57:23
you can see that is that would be
00:57:24
affected by this revealing
00:57:26
of such a relationship between a
00:57:28
country like Turkey.
00:57:30
Then we can say, yes, there
00:57:32
is an impact and that impact
00:57:34
will be plausible.
00:57:36
To see a certain kind of the
00:57:38
action of Assad when it comes
00:57:40
to the Palestinians and taking
00:57:42
certain steps backwards
00:57:45
from their intentions
00:57:47
of taking over, from
00:57:49
the intentions of reoccupying
00:57:52
the territories again, under
00:57:54
the rubric of self-defense.
00:57:57
Understood.
00:57:58
I just want to, before we move on to
00:57:59
talk about back on Gaza,
00:58:01
I want to talk again on
00:58:02
international sport.
00:58:03
You brought up Denmark
00:58:05
with regards to the, I
00:58:07
believe, the funding of weapons
00:58:09
supplies to Israel.
00:58:11
And you've also mentioned the UK.
00:58:12
You have been Palestinian ambassador
00:58:14
to both of those nations.
00:58:15
So you clearly have a very strong
00:58:17
position on the support that those
00:58:18
nations still provide to Israel.
00:58:21
What are those conversations like
00:58:23
for you diplomatically when you're
00:58:24
trying to get in rooms in Denmark
00:58:27
and in the UK and try and
00:58:29
convince people of your cause and
00:58:31
the plight of the Palestinian
00:58:32
people?
00:58:34
Well, I cannot vouch
00:58:36
or say anything about
00:58:38
the UK because I left the UK six
00:58:40
years ago. I don't want to make any
00:58:42
statement on that.
00:58:43
But I know for a fact that Britain
00:58:45
still is sending arms
00:58:47
and heavy arms.
00:58:49
But I can talk about the Danish
00:58:50
government I have met at
00:58:52
the Foreign Ministry with the
00:58:54
director of MENA and
00:58:56
the you know, I
00:58:58
told her I registered a complaint
00:59:00
about youth government sending arms.
00:59:03
She said, we don't send shoes.
00:59:05
We are part of the
00:59:07
EF five industry
00:59:09
that makes spare parts to F 16
00:59:12
and F 32
00:59:14
and what have you.
00:59:15
I said, but she said, We are not
00:59:17
alone. We are part of several
00:59:19
European countries who are
00:59:21
involved in the production of
00:59:23
such spare parts for these weapons.
00:59:25
I said, Can't you stop these
00:59:26
spare parts, not be part
00:59:28
and parcel of this organization
00:59:30
that goes across Europe
00:59:32
in sending, you know, these spare
00:59:34
parts for for the F 16
00:59:36
and the F 19 and the F 32
00:59:39
that are constantly bombing our
00:59:41
people in Gaza.
00:59:42
She said, well, you know, it's not
00:59:44
like sending them arms.
00:59:45
I said, No.
00:59:46
It's like sending them arms.
00:59:48
These are spare parts that make
00:59:50
these, you know, fighters
00:59:52
to continue their bombing of
00:59:54
our people.
00:59:55
So she took it, you know, with a
00:59:57
salt, with a grain of salt
00:59:59
or with the salt of a grain.
01:00:02
I don't know how you want to take
01:00:03
it, but eventually
01:00:05
she said, I will I will raise that
01:00:07
with the government, with the prime
01:00:09
minister and with the foreign
01:00:09
minister.
01:00:10
So far they did not come
01:00:12
back to us. We did not hear about
01:00:14
telling us that
01:00:15
either. They have stopped working
01:00:18
with these companies or
01:00:20
they are still working with these
01:00:22
companies. And to my knowledge,
01:00:24
they are still working with these
01:00:25
companies. So my criticism
01:00:27
will be continuous against,
01:00:30
you know, the Danish government from
01:00:32
that perspective, that they are
01:00:33
still supporting Israel
01:00:35
with weapons.
01:00:37
Very interesting insight.
01:00:38
Thank you for sharing that.
01:00:40
I just want to ask, obviously, your
01:00:41
focus is on the Palestinian people,
01:00:43
not on Lebanon.
01:00:44
But when you saw what was
01:00:46
happening with Israel sort of
01:00:48
as people have turned to opening up
01:00:49
a second front into Lebanon
01:00:52
with regards to military action
01:00:54
in the last fortnight, what
01:00:56
did you think?
01:00:57
Where did you think things would go
01:00:58
from there, given your experience of
01:00:59
what's happened in Gaza?
01:01:03
Well, let me assure you one
01:01:04
thing.
01:01:05
Israel now is trying to justify
01:01:08
a war, a war
01:01:10
against Lebanon and against
01:01:12
the Palestinians as a defensive
01:01:14
war, as if they are defending
01:01:16
themselves as occupiers, as
01:01:18
if we are threatening their
01:01:20
security.
01:01:21
Okay. And they're defending
01:01:22
themselves, Did they?
01:01:24
This is considered to be
01:01:26
an onslaught that is
01:01:28
strategically very obvious
01:01:30
militarily, that they want to
01:01:32
create buffer zones of security
01:01:34
in southern Lebanon and try to
01:01:36
finish Hezbollah as much
01:01:38
as they can, but to no avail,
01:01:40
because Hezbollah is not going to be
01:01:41
finished. By the same token,
01:01:43
they want also to reoccupy
01:01:45
half of Gaza to use it as
01:01:47
a buffer zone.
01:01:48
And by trying to get
01:01:50
rid of Hamas.
01:01:51
And they failed also dismally
01:01:53
in that.
01:01:54
But they will continue on these two
01:01:55
fronts as long as the Americans are
01:01:57
giving them the green light.
01:01:59
So they want to get rid of
01:02:01
their human beings.
01:02:02
What they're what they call
01:02:03
terrorists, as much as
01:02:05
many as they can in order to
01:02:07
secure boundaries
01:02:09
in Gaza and in southern Lebanon
01:02:12
for the coming 20 years
01:02:14
without bothering with anything
01:02:16
called resistance movement.
01:02:17
And, of course, their hope is that
01:02:19
Iraq is the Americans will hand
01:02:21
them and let alone the only
01:02:24
car that is left for the Israelis
01:02:26
with the Americans is how
01:02:28
basically to contain Iran
01:02:30
and to contain Iran, not militarily,
01:02:32
because the price is going
01:02:34
to be very heavy on Israel and
01:02:36
America.
01:02:37
But to contain them
01:02:39
politically with some
01:02:41
kind of incentives
01:02:44
that will be plausible for the
01:02:45
Iranians to accept, because
01:02:47
I believe that Iran's
01:02:50
influence anymore
01:02:51
within the resistance is
01:02:53
becoming more and more
01:02:55
peripheral.
01:02:56
Weak and not strong,
01:02:59
as these fighters
01:03:01
have anticipated, you know, before
01:03:03
they have embark in resisting
01:03:05
such an atrocious occupation.
01:03:08
Understood. Yeah.
01:03:09
There was analysis
01:03:12
about how strong that relationship
01:03:14
was, as you heard Iranian
01:03:16
remarks sort of basically not
01:03:17
distancing from Hamas or Hezbollah
01:03:20
in the weeks before things really
01:03:21
ratcheted up. But just sort of
01:03:23
saying, well, they have the means to
01:03:24
fight themselves. But we really have
01:03:26
seen Iran intervene
01:03:29
in the past week.
01:03:30
Which leads me just to ask you,
01:03:32
what are your concerns for the
01:03:34
coming weeks for the entire region?
01:03:38
I tell you, the entire region,
01:03:39
we will still continue to escalate
01:03:42
in Gaza and in southern Lebanon
01:03:44
until, you know, they feel that
01:03:46
the resistance in both sides
01:03:48
is weakening.
01:03:49
And as long as they can go
01:03:52
foot on the ground and try more
01:03:54
or less to control territories,
01:03:57
that would be the intentions.
01:03:59
But they cannot do that until they
01:04:01
can continue bombarding
01:04:03
southern Lebanon and Gaza
01:04:05
to the point where it's become
01:04:07
secure for the soldiers to go,
01:04:10
you know, personally and try
01:04:12
to occupy parts of Gaza
01:04:14
and to occupy, you know,
01:04:16
the southern part of
01:04:18
Lebanon. And then there
01:04:20
was talk about, you know, having an
01:04:22
armistice with the Lebanese
01:04:24
government on the southern part of
01:04:25
Lebanon and trying more or less
01:04:28
to flirt with the Palestinian
01:04:29
Authority, that, okay, we might
01:04:31
accept as a result of the Americans
01:04:33
pressures that the Palestinian
01:04:35
Authority should come and do
01:04:37
the remaining parts
01:04:40
of Gaza and they might, you
01:04:42
know, stop, you know, all these
01:04:43
attacks by the settlers
01:04:46
and give some breathing
01:04:49
air for the Palestinians in East
01:04:51
Jerusalem and try to mend
01:04:53
the situation according to their
01:04:55
own strategic vision, i.e.,
01:04:57
reoccupation restructuring,
01:05:00
the dividing the Middle
01:05:02
East into enclaves of colonial
01:05:04
of of colonies.
01:05:06
And this is what the intention
01:05:08
that had been put by the America
01:05:10
as a long strategy.
01:05:11
And what Israel is doing myopically
01:05:13
as
01:05:15
a local tactic will
01:05:17
eventually synchronize
01:05:19
at best to view the
01:05:21
Middle East in a different
01:05:23
perspective.
01:05:24
There is a decision that
01:05:26
we cannot go back to the status quo
01:05:28
ante.
01:05:29
Palestine Ambassador to Denmark and
01:05:31
former ambassador to the Palestine
01:05:33
Mission in the United Kingdom,
01:05:34
Manuel Hazan.
01:05:35
Thank you.
01:05:37
Thank you, ma'am.
01:05:43
Well, my next guest lost her aunt
01:05:45
and a young cousin when Hamas
01:05:47
attackers rampaged through
01:05:49
kibbutz neurons on October
01:05:51
7th last year.
01:05:53
I be on.
01:05:54
Thank you for taking the time to
01:05:56
speak with me and talk
01:05:57
to us about what this day will
01:05:59
forever mean for you.
01:06:00
All of the family at the kibbutz
01:06:02
where Carmela was born,
01:06:04
she and her granddaughter Noah are
01:06:06
buried there. And in Jewish
01:06:07
tradition.
01:06:08
You go 30 days after the burial
01:06:10
and one year later as well.
01:06:12
So we gathered there today as a
01:06:13
family to
01:06:15
remember them, to commemorate
01:06:17
them and to strengthen one
01:06:19
another. Because as much as we're
01:06:21
grieving them, we're still fighting
01:06:23
for over there.
01:06:24
Who's being held in Gaza?
01:06:26
Yeah. You still got family in
01:06:29
being held hostage.
01:06:30
And I mean,
01:06:32
talk to me about the hope that
01:06:34
you've got that you will be
01:06:35
reunited.
01:06:38
I think the only thing we have right
01:06:39
now is hope.
01:06:40
I mean, I think there's sadness and
01:06:42
disbelief and
01:06:44
anger and fear.
01:06:45
I think there's every emotion.
01:06:46
But if we lose hope, then I think we
01:06:48
lose our strength also.
01:06:50
And so today,
01:06:52
it feels unreal
01:06:54
that we're one year later and
01:06:56
continuing to tell the story
01:06:58
instead of talking about how
01:07:00
we're reunited and how the hostages
01:07:02
are back and how whatever's
01:07:04
happening in this region is
01:07:05
de-escalated.
01:07:06
It must feel incredibly surreal and
01:07:08
also unbelievably difficult
01:07:10
to talk about again and again
01:07:12
in media interviews like this
01:07:14
one. So do you do
01:07:16
them in order to keep the story out
01:07:18
there?
01:07:19
1,000%, I think.
01:07:21
And I'm afraid that we've gotten to
01:07:23
a point 366
01:07:25
days on where it's a lot of thoughts
01:07:27
and prayers.
01:07:28
And I think the more we say their
01:07:30
names, the more that we talk about
01:07:32
affair and Sherry and Nomar
01:07:34
and all of the 100 are there,
01:07:36
whether they're alive or dead.
01:07:38
We need people around the world
01:07:40
to remember them, that they are
01:07:42
innocent civilians who are stolen
01:07:43
from their homes and from a party
01:07:46
and have been held against their
01:07:47
will in awful, awful
01:07:49
conditions for a year.
01:07:51
And we need the people
01:07:53
of the world to to rise
01:07:55
up and to demand from
01:07:57
their leaders that these people be
01:08:00
returned home.
01:08:01
I wanted to ask you that about
01:08:03
the statements we've been getting
01:08:05
from world leaders around the world.
01:08:07
As expected, you know,
01:08:09
large statements coming out
01:08:11
from all the countries in the world
01:08:12
talking about solidarity
01:08:16
a lot with you and a lot with your
01:08:17
people like your family who were
01:08:19
affected by the events of October
01:08:21
7th. But of course, also talking
01:08:22
about the political situation.
01:08:24
How much did those statements mean
01:08:25
to you?
01:08:28
Look, I'm grateful that they're
01:08:29
acknowledging the date.
01:08:31
I think this is a date that will
01:08:32
forever live in Israeli and
01:08:34
Jewish history.
01:08:35
But I would be happier if they would
01:08:37
get around the table and figure out
01:08:39
a deal in order to get the 100
01:08:41
people home. Because as
01:08:42
a country, we have been
01:08:45
mourning and grieving and fighting
01:08:47
and hoping for the last year
01:08:49
and we will not
01:08:52
be home until they're back.
01:08:54
And so I'm grateful
01:08:56
again that they're talking about it.
01:08:57
But we need more than talk.
01:08:59
We need action.
01:09:00
And in terms of the remaining
01:09:02
hundred that suppose
01:09:05
that people think are still in Gaza,
01:09:07
of which unfortunately, we don't
01:09:08
know how many, of course, are still
01:09:11
alive.
01:09:12
Netanyahu today in a statement
01:09:14
saying that he is still committed to
01:09:16
getting those hostages home.
01:09:18
Do you believe him?
01:09:20
Look, he's always said that there
01:09:21
are two aims for the war.
01:09:22
One in the beginning to defeat
01:09:24
Hamas.
01:09:25
I would say now that that's about
01:09:27
defeating any proxy of
01:09:29
the Islamic regime, including
01:09:30
Hezbollah, the Houthis.
01:09:33
And to bring the hostages home,
01:09:36
one of which has a
01:09:37
timeline. We saw on September 1st
01:09:40
that six hostages were executed.
01:09:42
They were alive.
01:09:43
And then moments later, they
01:09:45
were dead.
01:09:46
And we need that aim to
01:09:48
be the priority because the ones
01:09:50
that are there, 33 of whom are
01:09:51
confirmed dead,
01:09:53
they need to be brought home.
01:09:54
There's a chance to bring home
01:09:56
living hostages.
01:09:58
And that has to be the priority not
01:10:00
only of Israel, but of the United
01:10:01
States and every country
01:10:03
around the world, because this
01:10:05
is our responsibility as humans.
01:10:07
It is our responsibility as Jews and
01:10:09
Israelis, but also as humans
01:10:11
to bring home people who have been
01:10:12
taken against their will.
01:10:14
And we can't sit by idly.
01:10:15
We can't just say we're thinking
01:10:17
about them.
01:10:18
We have to fight for them.
01:10:18
We have to do everything we can to
01:10:20
make sure that they are brought
01:10:21
home.
01:10:22
And, you know, a year ago when we
01:10:25
started looking at this
01:10:27
crisis as journalists and observing
01:10:28
it from the outside, and I was
01:10:30
in London, I interviewed a hostage
01:10:32
negotiator at the time, and he was
01:10:33
talking about the possibilities of
01:10:35
getting the hostages out within a
01:10:37
certain time frame and how dangerous
01:10:38
it was beyond that.
01:10:40
And talked about the pressure
01:10:42
on families, people like you dealing
01:10:44
with people who are in captivity and
01:10:46
hostage and the unknown.
01:10:48
At the time, we were talking of
01:10:49
timeframes of a few weeks
01:10:51
or months. As you say, a whole year
01:10:52
has passed. What's it like living
01:10:54
with that every day?
01:10:57
So look, in the first in the
01:10:58
beginning of the war, when it was
01:10:59
three members of the family that
01:11:00
were held hostage for 52
01:11:02
days felt endless.
01:11:04
And it was after 52 days that Sara
01:11:06
and Aras were returned
01:11:08
at age 12 and 16 at
01:11:10
the time and felt
01:11:12
every moment felt like a year.
01:11:14
And at this point, it's
01:11:16
I feel completely confounded
01:11:18
that the world isn't talking about
01:11:20
them. These are people from more
01:11:21
than 30 countries.
01:11:23
So many countries around the world
01:11:24
have a citizen being held against
01:11:26
their will.
01:11:27
And if you actually let your brain
01:11:28
think about what they're going
01:11:30
through, if you look at the
01:11:31
execution and
01:11:33
the conditions that the six
01:11:36
that were killed last month were
01:11:37
kept in, it is horrifying.
01:11:39
It is the worst nightmare
01:11:41
you could imagine.
01:11:43
And it's a reality.
01:11:44
It's a reality for our family.
01:11:45
It's a reality for our
01:11:47
our countrymen.
01:11:49
And I think people
01:11:51
look at it as a conflict
01:11:53
and they're not thinking about the
01:11:54
humanity. And there's so much
01:11:56
humanity. Each one of them
01:11:58
is a world to the people that love
01:12:00
them. And for us in Israel,
01:12:02
they are even bigger.
01:12:05
And and we could never imagine
01:12:07
we would get to this point.
01:12:08
And I think that's why it's critical
01:12:09
that we continue to tell the story
01:12:12
so that people think about what this
01:12:13
would feel like if it had happened
01:12:14
to them and what they would do.
01:12:16
I think that's very well-put because
01:12:19
there's an element of people
01:12:20
becoming, of course, desensitized
01:12:22
to conflict news.
01:12:23
We've seen that happen with
01:12:25
the Ukraine Russia conflict as well.
01:12:27
When it leaves the headlines, people
01:12:29
lose interest. So you doing
01:12:31
interviews like this and putting
01:12:32
that humanity back into the hostages
01:12:34
and reminding us that they are
01:12:36
nationalities around the world,
01:12:37
perhaps it will help people relate
01:12:39
further.
01:12:40
Look, just talk to me about today
01:12:41
when you went back to the kibbutz
01:12:43
for the memorial, did you how safe
01:12:45
did you feel when you were there?
01:12:48
Look, there were sirens ringing
01:12:49
around Israel, you know, from
01:12:52
Hamas and from Hezbollah
01:12:54
to remind us that
01:12:56
they're still there and that we're
01:12:58
still fighting.
01:12:59
You know, we we spent hours in our
01:13:01
bomb shelter last week with this
01:13:03
ballistic missile attack from Iran.
01:13:05
And we know right now that there is
01:13:07
an escalation.
01:13:09
So I think I literally was just
01:13:11
thinking that it's part of the
01:13:12
terror that you never know when the
01:13:14
next attack is going to be, that you
01:13:15
never know when the next siren is
01:13:17
going to ring, that you never know
01:13:18
if you get in the shower, get in the
01:13:20
car, if you're going to be caught
01:13:22
in it and needing to go to a bomb
01:13:24
shelter.
01:13:25
But I think on another level,
01:13:27
being with all of our family members
01:13:29
today was cathartic and
01:13:31
critical.
01:13:32
And I think that marking
01:13:34
today and marking the murder
01:13:36
of Carmela in a way is
01:13:38
necessary, as hard as it is.
01:13:41
And also, I took in
01:13:43
that Aras and Sara were there this
01:13:44
time when we buried Carmela
01:13:46
Noya a year ago.
01:13:48
They weren't there because they were
01:13:49
being held hostage.
01:13:51
And this time they got to come and
01:13:52
commemorate their grandmother and
01:13:54
their cousin.
01:13:56
But at the same time, their father
01:13:58
was missing. And we are forever
01:13:59
aware of that.
01:14:01
How are they doing, all
01:14:03
things considered, given
01:14:05
how long they were in a hostage
01:14:07
situation in captivity?
01:14:09
How are they doing since then?
01:14:10
Now they're out.
01:14:11
At this point, they're physically
01:14:13
okay, but
01:14:15
they will never be emotionally
01:14:17
or spiritually or mentally okay
01:14:19
until their father is back.
01:14:21
It's like a part of their body
01:14:22
is missing and they
01:14:24
will never feel whole.
01:14:26
They will never feel joy.
01:14:27
They will never feel complete until
01:14:29
they're home. He's home and they
01:14:31
are 12 and 17 years old right now.
01:14:34
Arias is turning 13 this month.
01:14:36
And this is not a fight
01:14:38
for children.
01:14:39
This is not a fight for teenagers.
01:14:41
This is a moment where world leaders
01:14:43
need to show bravery, need to show.
01:14:46
Creativity and need
01:14:48
to put politics aside
01:14:50
and find a way to bring these people
01:14:52
home and understand and doing so,
01:14:54
they will de-escalate this conflict.
01:14:56
Do you have any hopes for that
01:14:58
currently regards what you see
01:14:59
happening diplomatically or
01:15:01
politically? Do you have and do you
01:15:02
see any voices out there?
01:15:04
Perhaps you don't even want to watch
01:15:05
the news, but do you see anybody
01:15:06
doing anything where you think that
01:15:08
is going to help us make progress?
01:15:10
I think it sounds
01:15:13
a little bit upside down, but I
01:15:14
think the more that
01:15:16
the Islamic regime, the proxies of
01:15:18
Iran, attack us, the
01:15:20
more the West might understand how
01:15:21
grave the threat is not only to
01:15:23
Israel but to the West.
01:15:24
And so I think in many ways, we are
01:15:26
fighting the world's war.
01:15:28
And I hope that they see the threat
01:15:30
and understand that this doesn't
01:15:32
stop with us.
01:15:32
It doesn't stop with this tiny strip
01:15:34
of land that we know to be Israel,
01:15:36
that this is coming for others.
01:15:39
And in the same way that the United
01:15:41
States responded to terror in the
01:15:42
aftermath of 911.
01:15:44
We need the world to stand up to
01:15:45
terror. Now, I think
01:15:47
everyone can agree that Israel,
01:15:49
the people of Israel and the people
01:15:51
of Palestine are going anywhere.
01:15:53
But the organizations
01:15:55
that are unleashing terror
01:15:57
in this region need to be stopped.
01:16:00
And I think that we need leaders who
01:16:01
can stand up to that.
01:16:03
And what strikes me about speaking
01:16:05
to you, Abby, is that, you know,
01:16:06
because obviously, as part of this
01:16:08
show, we're speaking to politicians,
01:16:09
ambassadors and the like, but then
01:16:11
we're speaking to people like you
01:16:12
who've been personally so affected
01:16:14
by what happened a year ago and
01:16:16
since then, and
01:16:18
you're speaking with such clarity
01:16:20
about the political situation,
01:16:22
because clearly it is part of your
01:16:23
fight as well as remembering those
01:16:25
you've lost, as well as campaigning
01:16:27
for those still in captivity.
01:16:28
You seem to be very, very focused
01:16:30
on the politics and what's happening
01:16:32
around you and trying to make sense
01:16:34
of that. I mean, how much of
01:16:36
that is about dealing with your
01:16:38
everyday reality?
01:16:40
I think I've never felt more like an
01:16:42
adult in the last year
01:16:44
in trying to understand the
01:16:45
complexities of this region
01:16:47
and what's happening and how
01:16:49
people in power impact
01:16:51
these kinds of situations.
01:16:53
And I wish for one
01:16:55
moment that they could put aside
01:16:58
the politics and the money
01:17:00
and the need for power.
01:17:01
Right. The United States is in an
01:17:02
election year, and I think that
01:17:04
deeply impacts what's happening
01:17:05
here.
01:17:06
And said there are people,
01:17:09
including the hostages, including
01:17:11
the people in Gaza, including
01:17:13
the close to 100,000 Israelis who've
01:17:14
been displaced from their homes, who
01:17:16
are suffering.
01:17:17
And there has to be a way to end
01:17:19
that suffering. That has to be the
01:17:20
number one goal of all the people
01:17:22
around the table.
01:17:23
And that's what we're trying to
01:17:25
figure out, because
01:17:27
as someone who's lived in Israel for
01:17:28
close to a decade, I don't think
01:17:30
anyone I know wishes ill
01:17:32
on the people of Gaza
01:17:34
or any Palestinian.
01:17:36
But we woke up on October 7th
01:17:38
to a war. We didn't start to
01:17:40
horror that we never could
01:17:42
have imagined.
01:17:43
And now, a year on, all we want
01:17:45
is our family home.
01:17:47
And once that happens, I believe
01:17:49
that the leaders will find a way to
01:17:50
end the fighting.
01:17:52
But the fighting won't stop until
01:17:53
our family members are home.
01:17:55
And when it comes to that fighting,
01:17:56
we've obviously seen footage of
01:17:58
demonstrations in cities across
01:18:00
Israel and heard the voices
01:18:02
of people fighting to get
01:18:04
the hostages returned home, but also
01:18:06
deep criticism of Netanyahu's
01:18:08
government.
01:18:09
What's it like dealing with
01:18:11
all of that?
01:18:12
Is it a hostile environment to be
01:18:13
campaigning in, to be thinking of
01:18:15
your loved ones?
01:18:17
It's not so much hostile as
01:18:19
heartbreaking.
01:18:20
You know, leading up to October 7th,
01:18:23
which you, of course, never
01:18:23
imagined. There was already a deep
01:18:25
schism.
01:18:26
I have a I have a siren.
01:18:28
I need to go. I'm sorry.
01:18:29
That was, of course, Abby
01:18:31
on the making her way to
01:18:33
a bunker in order to get safety
01:18:35
while an air raid siren was
01:18:36
sounding.
01:18:37
And we will continue with further
01:18:39
interviews here on Global News
01:18:41
today.
01:18:47
I'm joined now from Beirut by the
01:18:49
secretary general of the Lebanese
01:18:51
political party, the National Block.
01:18:52
Michel. Hello.
01:18:54
Thank you for making time
01:18:56
to talk to us about what today
01:18:58
has been like in Lebanon.
01:19:01
Thank you.
01:19:03
And the situation is is
01:19:05
very, very difficult.
01:19:07
You know,
01:19:09
the nights specifically are
01:19:10
terrible. We try to sleep
01:19:13
with the sound of bombs and we wake
01:19:15
up with the cited fumes and smoke
01:19:17
and destruction.
01:19:19
And I am lucky because I'm part of
01:19:20
the ones who can still live in their
01:19:22
homes.
01:19:23
And and, you know, knowing that
01:19:25
a lot of people, thousands
01:19:27
of people have lost their houses
01:19:29
and 1.2 million Lebanese
01:19:31
were forced to leave their
01:19:33
villages.
01:19:34
And so the situation is extremely,
01:19:36
extremely difficult.
01:19:37
Villages are trying to accommodate
01:19:40
for internally displaced
01:19:42
people.
01:19:43
There's thousands of
01:19:45
of people of shelters, hundreds
01:19:47
of schools, public schools that have
01:19:48
been used as shelters
01:19:51
with local communities, trying to
01:19:53
help out with NGOs, with civil
01:19:55
society, with with
01:19:57
individuals, normal citizens
01:19:59
coming rising up
01:20:01
to the to the task,
01:20:02
to the challenges in order to help
01:20:05
their fellow Lebanese
01:20:07
and compatriots that are
01:20:09
that are suffering from from the
01:20:11
bombings and and from this
01:20:12
disastrous humanitarian situation,
01:20:14
knowing that the Lebanese state
01:20:16
is extremely weak.
01:20:18
And we've been, you
01:20:20
know, dealing with a disastrous
01:20:22
financial and economic crisis
01:20:24
for the last five years.
01:20:25
The banks have collapsed.
01:20:26
The currency has collapsed.
01:20:28
So this only makes the situation
01:20:30
more difficult.
01:20:31
And the Israeli bombings do not
01:20:33
stop. They do not stop.
01:20:35
They start usually around midnight
01:20:37
with preceded
01:20:39
by some warnings by
01:20:41
the Israeli
01:20:43
spokesperson on Twitter.
01:20:45
He they basically send Twitter
01:20:47
messages 15 minutes
01:20:49
or maximum an hour before the
01:20:51
strikes and tell people to evacuate.
01:20:53
But how can people evacuate in
01:20:55
15 minutes or in 30 minutes or an
01:20:57
hour?
01:20:58
It's it's it just adds
01:21:00
to the trauma
01:21:02
of the population, to the fear.
01:21:03
I think it's also a psychological
01:21:05
tactic that is being used.
01:21:07
And, you know, this bombing is
01:21:09
unending.
01:21:10
All the people say that this
01:21:12
is much worse than the 2006
01:21:14
war that Israel had waged on Lebanon
01:21:16
already and had already
01:21:18
destroyed large parts of the
01:21:20
country.
01:21:21
In terms of the build up
01:21:23
that got to this point.
01:21:25
Did you think you would be at
01:21:27
this point with so many displaced
01:21:29
in Lebanon with bombs raining down
01:21:31
on Beirut?
01:21:32
There was, of course, a lot of
01:21:33
cross-border tension.
01:21:34
There were missiles fired by
01:21:35
Hezbollah across the border into
01:21:36
Israel throughout the course of the
01:21:38
last year, especially since October
01:21:39
7th. And did you
01:21:41
think that you would end up here
01:21:43
now?
01:21:46
When you live such a disaster,
01:21:48
you never really believe
01:21:50
it until you get there.
01:21:52
Although a lot of people, especially
01:21:54
specifically
01:21:55
we were part
01:21:57
of the people who were actually
01:21:59
warning of the potential
01:22:01
of a looming war.
01:22:02
And we've been saying that for
01:22:04
a year.
01:22:05
Stop the fighting.
01:22:07
Cease the fire.
01:22:08
And but no matter
01:22:10
how much you warn, no matter how
01:22:12
much you say that, you only
01:22:14
really realize
01:22:17
it when you're under the bombing
01:22:19
and when you see your country
01:22:20
collapsing and being destroyed.
01:22:23
However, definitely
01:22:25
Hezbollah does bear responsibility.
01:22:27
And it's not just the
01:22:29
Israelis that bear
01:22:31
the entire responsibility.
01:22:32
Obviously, they're the ones
01:22:33
destroying our country.
01:22:35
But let's also remember that on
01:22:37
October 8th, Hezbollah opened the
01:22:38
front and that many
01:22:40
Lebanese, in fact, all
01:22:43
Lebanese political forces, apart
01:22:44
from Hezbollah, were against or
01:22:46
nearly all of them were against,
01:22:48
opening this front.
01:22:50
You've been telling Hezbollah for a
01:22:51
year, stop the fighting.
01:22:53
Stop launching rockets because we're
01:22:55
we're not getting
01:22:57
anywhere. Are we really supporting
01:23:00
the Palestinian cause with that?
01:23:02
Who really wants to
01:23:04
have our country involved?
01:23:05
What is the meaning of this
01:23:08
unity of front's theory?
01:23:10
What is where where are we going
01:23:12
with that?
01:23:13
And and and in fact,
01:23:16
we had a chance, I believe, a year
01:23:18
ago or until
01:23:20
until a couple of weeks ago, we had
01:23:21
a chance to stop the fighting.
01:23:23
But now the power, the balance of
01:23:25
power has changed completely.
01:23:27
The Israelis have the upper hand.
01:23:29
And and and I believe
01:23:31
that with the current government,
01:23:33
the fanatic government of Benjamin
01:23:35
Netanyahu, they're really not
01:23:36
willing to stop.
01:23:37
And this is extremely scary for our
01:23:38
country.
01:23:39
Indeed, in a previous interview
01:23:41
before the major attack started
01:23:43
on Lebanon, you talked about
01:23:45
the overwhelming sympathy
01:23:47
that many Lebanese have for the high
01:23:49
humanitarian toll in Gaza.
01:23:51
But the cost of Hezbollah's
01:23:53
intervention could be too high
01:23:55
to bear. Are you now bearing that?
01:24:00
Definitely. And I think that this
01:24:02
sentiment has only grown stronger.
01:24:04
I think that the Lebanese
01:24:06
stand united
01:24:08
against the Israeli aggression.
01:24:10
I think that the Lebanese have shown
01:24:12
incredible solidarity and unity
01:24:15
with one another,
01:24:17
helping one another everywhere
01:24:19
across the country, welcoming
01:24:21
internally displaced people who've
01:24:23
lost their homes, have lost their
01:24:25
loved ones.
01:24:26
But I think that now is the moment
01:24:28
also where we need political
01:24:30
unity and political unity
01:24:32
with a clear vision,
01:24:34
political unity behind the state,
01:24:37
political unity behind
01:24:39
the army that we need to work on,
01:24:41
strengthening political unity
01:24:43
behind seizing the fire
01:24:46
and strengthening our
01:24:48
institutions and
01:24:50
a proper and having a proper
01:24:52
vision in order to
01:24:54
exit this war of the axis.
01:24:56
To not rely on anyone
01:24:58
because we have been relying on
01:25:00
foreign powers and on foreign
01:25:02
influence for at least the last 50
01:25:04
years, if not more, in the history
01:25:05
of Lebanon.
01:25:06
And every time we learned
01:25:08
at our expense that relying
01:25:10
on a flying country is a mistake,
01:25:12
it is always a mistake.
01:25:14
We can have allies, we can build
01:25:15
alliances, but we always
01:25:17
need to rely only
01:25:19
on our own national
01:25:21
political interests.
01:25:22
And I think that this is what we
01:25:24
need to get back to see.
01:25:24
Now, what we need is proper, large,
01:25:28
a discourse that will bring everyone
01:25:30
together and a large political unity
01:25:32
in order to come back for a state
01:25:34
and to rebuild it.
01:25:36
Let's talk about how we get there,
01:25:37
because, of course, you speak from
01:25:38
the political point of view being
01:25:39
secretary general of Lebanese
01:25:41
political party, the national blog.
01:25:44
A lot of international viewers who
01:25:45
may be not that familiar with
01:25:47
Lebanon might
01:25:48
be asking, why is there just a
01:25:50
caretaker prime minister at the
01:25:52
moment? Why was Lebanon so
01:25:53
vulnerable right now to this
01:25:55
happening? How have Hezbollah been
01:25:57
able to rise so much?
01:25:59
And you previously also
01:26:01
said there's a major role for
01:26:02
diplomacy, which the Lebanese
01:26:03
government has not played since the
01:26:05
beginning. It's been completely
01:26:06
absent. What did you mean by that?
01:26:09
Diplomacy is is fundamental.
01:26:11
And I think that way too
01:26:13
many people have forgotten that in
01:26:15
the region, starting with the
01:26:16
Israelis, Israel might
01:26:18
be having some tactical military
01:26:20
wins, but there is no proper
01:26:22
strategy.
01:26:23
In fact, a lot of people are saying
01:26:25
that Israel is now trying to destroy
01:26:26
a problem it helped create
01:26:29
when it invaded the country and
01:26:30
occupied the country for 18 years,
01:26:32
starting in 1982.
01:26:34
And the reality is that if they keep
01:26:35
going that way.
01:26:37
Invading and destroying our country,
01:26:39
you might end up with worse
01:26:41
than Hezbollah.
01:26:43
So what we need is
01:26:45
proper diplomacy.
01:26:47
And on our side, as
01:26:49
Lebanese, we have a role to play.
01:26:51
We need a political alternative.
01:26:53
People want a political
01:26:55
alternative where working
01:26:57
all of us as Lebanese political
01:26:58
forces on a political alternative.
01:27:01
But Israel cannot bump us
01:27:02
into building a political
01:27:04
alternative.
01:27:06
Now, it's true that the state,
01:27:08
the Lebanese state, the Lebanese
01:27:09
institutions have been blocked,
01:27:12
let's say, over the last
01:27:14
16 to 18 years, since
01:27:16
2008, specifically
01:27:19
when Hezbollah
01:27:21
did a mini coup
01:27:23
on May 7th, 2008.
01:27:25
And then we ended up with
01:27:26
what we called the Doha agreements
01:27:29
that were signed in Qatar.
01:27:30
And after a short lived civil
01:27:32
war where Hezbollah invaded Beirut.
01:27:35
This Doha agreement basically
01:27:38
puts a nail in the coffin of the
01:27:40
Lebanese constitution.
01:27:42
And it allowed Hezbollah
01:27:44
to start blocking the institutions
01:27:45
gradually.
01:27:47
In turn, our consultation
01:27:49
notes are, let's say,
01:27:52
a collective democracy
01:27:54
into some sort of a way to
01:27:56
see if it's ocracy where
01:27:58
they were basically able to stop
01:28:00
any decisions that were not
01:28:03
there that they didn't agree with.
01:28:05
And recently,
01:28:06
this showed very clearly
01:28:08
with Hezbollah preventing us from
01:28:10
electing a president for the
01:28:12
republic. So we've been it's been
01:28:14
two years that we're trying to elect
01:28:15
the president and that Hezbollah
01:28:17
is blocking that process.
01:28:19
So they have been part
01:28:21
of the all the attempts
01:28:24
to block. And they've been, let's
01:28:25
say, the main the
01:28:27
main call for the blocking
01:28:29
of the institutions.
01:28:31
Now, what we want and what we need
01:28:32
is a large movement
01:28:34
that will basically stand
01:28:36
up and say, we do face
01:28:38
the Israeli aggressions,
01:28:41
however, and now is not the time.
01:28:43
Now is not the time to
01:28:46
let us say and
01:28:48
to to come back to
01:28:50
the past disagreements
01:28:52
and to solve all those past issues.
01:28:55
Now is the time to gather.
01:28:57
Come back to the Constitution and
01:28:59
rebuild our state behind
01:29:01
the army and behind the
01:29:02
institutions. That means first,
01:29:04
a cease fire, an imperative, a cease
01:29:06
fire, electing a president.
01:29:08
And now is an urgency to open
01:29:10
the parliament that Hezbollah has
01:29:12
been forcing us to close for the
01:29:13
last two years, open a parliament
01:29:16
to elect a president and
01:29:18
apply the international
01:29:20
resolutions, starting with the 17
01:29:22
zero one.
01:29:23
Let's talk about some of you
01:29:24
previously mentioned allies and
01:29:26
supporters and let's talk neighbors
01:29:28
as well. You know, Jordan's foreign
01:29:30
minister meeting your caretaker
01:29:32
prime minister today in Beirut.
01:29:34
And his words were that Israel
01:29:36
is pushing the Middle East into the
01:29:37
abyss, a full scale regional
01:29:39
war. Do you agree with that?
01:29:42
I think he's totally right and I
01:29:44
think that his voice is very much
01:29:45
needed.
01:29:46
And the way Israel is behaving
01:29:49
is is pushing all
01:29:51
of us into something extremely
01:29:53
dangerous.
01:29:54
And although Netanyahu
01:29:56
might believe that he's he's on
01:29:58
a on a tactical winning streak
01:30:00
because he's assassinating
01:30:02
his opponents left and right
01:30:05
in the end.
01:30:07
Where does he want to get?
01:30:09
Will the Israeli
01:30:11
people, will the Jewish people feel
01:30:12
safer?
01:30:13
And if Netanyahu
01:30:15
fights on seven fronts and ignites
01:30:17
seven fronts at the same time,
01:30:20
does he realized that
01:30:22
45,000 at least
01:30:24
killed people in Gaza
01:30:27
will be a
01:30:29
scar that we will bear on our
01:30:31
own, on all the people's
01:30:33
consciences in the region here, and
01:30:35
that this will prevent us from
01:30:36
having stability and peace in
01:30:38
the longer term.
01:30:39
And I think that all of this
01:30:41
is extremely, extremely dangerous.
01:30:44
October 7th has
01:30:46
and what followed.
01:30:49
Of massacres and of
01:30:51
destruction and of possible
01:30:53
genocide, as the International Court
01:30:54
of Justice says all of that.
01:30:56
And has basically
01:30:58
created a huge gap
01:31:01
in the conscience between
01:31:03
East and West, between
01:31:05
religions, between
01:31:07
Israelis and their neighbors,
01:31:09
between Arabs and the rest
01:31:11
of the world. And I think that all
01:31:12
of that is extremely dangerous.
01:31:14
So now is the time for
01:31:16
a bit of maturity,
01:31:18
a bit of courage, some vision
01:31:21
and the ability to say
01:31:23
the solution will not be military,
01:31:25
the solution will be political
01:31:27
and diplomatic.
01:31:29
I appreciate it's difficult to talk
01:31:31
about this right now whilst your
01:31:33
city, whilst your country is under
01:31:36
military attack and aerial raids.
01:31:38
But can you find any any
01:31:39
source of hope at the moment or
01:31:41
anything you're clinging onto with
01:31:43
regards to a future, more peaceful
01:31:45
future?
01:31:48
I think that internally
01:31:50
the Lebanese have shown
01:31:52
quite an exceptional amount of
01:31:54
solidarity.
01:31:55
And I think that the Lebanese
01:31:57
political class is.
01:32:01
Hopefully going to show to
01:32:02
be more mature and
01:32:04
then than we previously thought.
01:32:07
And some people
01:32:09
say there's a new generation that is
01:32:11
rising and which
01:32:13
we are part of, which we're working
01:32:15
with. And we believe that this new
01:32:17
generation is also able to push
01:32:19
across all
01:32:21
sectarian differences
01:32:24
and sectarian lines, able
01:32:26
to push for a
01:32:28
national unity front that will bring
01:32:30
back all the Lebanese
01:32:32
forces of any political
01:32:34
forces behind and national
01:32:36
unity front and behind institutions.
01:32:38
So those two things, the maturity
01:32:40
of our people and
01:32:41
hopefully of.
01:32:45
Some of our political leaders would
01:32:46
bring us to a better
01:32:48
situation. But we also need
01:32:51
a huge pressure from the
01:32:52
international community.
01:32:54
And here we're specifically
01:32:55
expecting from the United States
01:32:57
that they
01:32:59
show that they're able to pressure
01:33:01
Israel, because otherwise,
01:33:03
if the Israeli policy is just
01:33:05
a policy of
01:33:07
destroying everything and,
01:33:10
you know, it's it's and
01:33:12
it won't get us anywhere.
01:33:14
So we also need in order
01:33:15
to to to have to
01:33:18
basically and believe in this
01:33:20
hope, we also need a very strong
01:33:21
support from the United States,
01:33:23
which until now we haven't gotten
01:33:25
and we haven't seen
01:33:27
on a larger scale in the region.
01:33:30
I think that it will take a lot
01:33:31
of time in order for
01:33:33
us to heal the wounds
01:33:35
specifically of the of the war in
01:33:37
Gaza and of the massacres
01:33:39
that have been committed there.
01:33:41
Secretary General, the Lebanese
01:33:42
political party national bloc.
01:33:44
Michelle, hello. Thank you for
01:33:45
making time.
01:33:47
Thank you.
01:33:53
That's all we have time for.
01:33:54
And global news today.
01:33:55
Thank you for watching.
01:33:55
And be sure to join us tomorrow for
01:33:57
more exclusive interviews.
01:33:58
And till then, goodbye.
In this episode of Global News Today with Rosanna Lockwood, we look back at 12 months of fighting between Israel and Hamas since the October 7 attacks. We are joined by experts, relatives of hostages, and those who have lost loved ones amid the war to share their insights and personal experiences.
Guests:
Michel Helou - Secretary-General of the Lebanese Political Party
Elana Kaminka - American-Israeli woman and peace activist whose 20-year-old son Hannai died during the October 7 attack
Abbey Onn - Lost her aunt and a young cousin when Hamas attackers rampaged through Kibbutz Nir Oz on October 7 taking them hostage
Manuel Hassassian - Palestinian Ambassador to Denmark and Former Ambassador for the Palestinian Mission to the United Kingdom
Dan Meridor - Former Deputy Prime Minister of Israel and Minister of Intelligence and Atomic Energy
